Its a little surprising to see so many people being such strong supporters to a lier and inexperienced man. the only thing he is more experienced in is military, politics and foreign affairs. Well thats obviously because he has been in politics longer, like, his age proves it. Any elder will have more experience than another in a certain topic because they've been around longer. McCain can't even do the most basic technical skills, he doesn't even know how to send an email, I'm not kidding! and his maverick talk is also his worst lie, this video is enough to prove it, made obvious at 2:30 to 2:43. a maverick sticks to his or her choices. McCain just spent too much time in Vietnam. He had never seen America grow up and in need of a new change in economy and health care. to McCain, America is the same small populated country that he left when he flew to Vietnam. You know what? I've noticed that most of the McCain/Palin supporters I've seen get very upset over the dumbest things. Like, I told some one that McCain's running mate, Sarah Palin, is far less experienced than Obama, I gave him the facts and he wanted to kill me because he thought I was a lier. I don't tell lies and he overreacted.
I think everyone needs to read the book 1984 again. The fact is, (and the Nazi's did a great job using this technique) if you repeat a lie often enough, people will tend to believe it, even though it's a bald faced lie. This is because people don't like to be uncomfortable. If they admit to themselves that it's a lie, then they have to do something about it, and it doesn't feel right. If they just convince themselves it's the truth, then it is much more comfortable... at least for now.
... so that's why the person you were talking to freaked out and wanted to kill you. Because you were presenting facts to him, and it made him uncomfortable. It's kind of like when you tell a fundamentalist Christian that a bunch of dudes wrote that book, not GOD. For them to believe that, shakes up their entire belief system, and every lie they've been telling themselves their whole lives... that can be quite uncomfortable.
No I don't think being shot down in Vietnam is insufficient experience, I'm saying he has never seen America grow up while he was gone. its like going away from your son as a kid and coming back to see him a grown adult, but still treat him as a child that you once knew. And Imthebigbadwolf, you don't know enough facts to be talking back, first religion is completely different from politics. second, God is not human, he's GOD. McCain is the one who's human, they're too different to be compared. Now the facts, It was a political argument. he wanted to know why I don't support McCain and instead Obama. he even said bad things about Obama which I defeated with facts since this guy only reasons with facts. there were some things like Obama doesn't have as much experience as McCain in certain topics I had to agree with. I gave him his facts and he was angry. It is a foolish human instinct, get angry with someone who doesn't follow by his or her rule (this sometimes gets deadly as seen in history). Its getting somewhat more common than the past years...
So I take that for a "no". The question now is what other qualifications would this guy have to be the president of the nation with the largest military force and largest foreign trade deficit in the world?
And deary me. It appears that the previously shown compilation of 'your mom' jokes from The Office has caused canadaman to lapse into regressive tendencies. The poor fellow can't seem to get his 3rd and 4th grade years of school off of his mind.
Drivel. You could take any politician, ANY, and put together clips to make him/her look like an idiot. The problem is politicians talk SO DAMN MUCH to try and get everyone to like em it would be impossible to not say somethings that conflict.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13UsLpcemAE OMG! OBAMA LIED TOO!... oh wait... he is a politician too...
I need to get all the teens together on this site and find somewhere to put them where they won't get shot in the throat. YouTube? Maybe. Honestly, the majorty of adults here are prejudiced against people that can be considered young. Mostly to to the sweeping generalization that we are all immature. {That's right elders, I lied about my age. Seriously, I need to quit with the freebies and start making you work for it. }
Being venomous you're not poisonous, therefore you must be one who either hunts/attacks or defends with your toxin. So far, I've seen no reason for you to defend, therefore you must be here for the hunt/attack...exempli gratia, "get all the teens together on this site and find somewhere to put them", and "I have a strong urge to verbally disembowel", followed up by revealing that you are, in fact, one of a younger generation, id est, not an adult.
Further you go on to reveal that you have lied about your age, which your profile info states as 22, since that is basically weaving a web of lies, I've got all the empirical evidence I need to prove you are in fact a Black Widow.
Your tactic is to lie in wait for a victim. When one is present (and trapped in your web) you quickly plunge your chelicera into its skin (envenomating it with a toxin much more potent than that of cobras and coral snakes).
Initially, your victim feels a mere pin prick, but within an hour a small, erythematous area develops, and since your venom acts through a calcium-mediated mechanism (which is the release of acetylcholine and nor-epinephrine) your victim will quickly experience hypertension, nausea, light sensitivity, difficulty breathing, diarrhea, muscle spasms, aches, feeling as though they have a ruptured appendix (your reference to disembowelment?)
So, you are here to jump all over the ignorant fool that stumbles into your web, stinging them good with your verbal venom, causing their blood pressure to go off the chart, paired with a sick pukey feeling, not able to even look at the screen, followed by shitting themselves, all while their guts feel as though they've been pulled out and dangling for all to see......
Georgie-Boy just decided to bail out Wall St. in yet ANOTHER government bail-out-intervention......and this time he wants a blank chque with taxpayers' money to do it. It will total in the MULTI-BILLIONS.
And John McSame keeps right on saying the "economic fundamentals are strong."
That, alone, should be enough to do him in come Nov. 4th (unless you want to throw in the time his chief economic advisor said that the American people were comprised of a "nation of whiners").
Either way, he and that numnuts VP-pick of his are complete whack jobs, and judging the the most recent polls, I think the average working stiff living stateside, is beginning to see/realize this as each day goes by.
Other than that, not too much more I can say about this tired, old clueless hack other than what I've been saying all along.
this last week will probably impact america (economically) more profoundly than any other single recent event .... if you are interested the washington post has an excellent and fairly concise explanation ..... p.s. it's infuriating
This is what believers in the "free-market" FAIL to learn, time-and-time again: namely, is that ANY SYSTEM that is allowed to completely run on its own, without any enforceable checks-and-balances....will, sooner or later.....implode.
But it's still these nutty republi-goons, who keep insisting that "the market will correct itself".
Fuckinjg Reagonomics nutjobs.
Rome is burning....and they're still playing the goddamn fiddle.
Frog, LOL to me you're a breath of fresh air! I too feel there is no good, outstanding, no-brainer choice in this farce...I, I mean election. Might as well go with the MILF!
C, you might lighten up a bit on the "Frogman" I personally know two (Ex) Navy seals, and I'm here to tell ya, your description of what you think they are is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY off! (at least for them) Commendable and the way it should be, but not accurate.
...and just like the last Bush bank scandal and bailout, no one goes to jail except for the peasants who through no fault of their own loose their job and can't pay their bills.
There will be no actions taken legally against the banks, or their CEO's for the bad loans, or the politicians for supporting the corruption, and no regulations set to avoid this problem in the future, and the SEC and FTC will sit and watch all of it and exclaim "Whats going on?"
I think the elite learned from the first "Bank crisis" and planned to do it all over again, only for a bigger return. They knew and planned to burden the taxpayer all along. It is what comes from having enough cash to pay Congress to do what they want.
Hello-So ive been reading all of your guy's comments and have found this to be quite an interesting group of people in this discussion with all your views and what not varying ever so deeply- well here i go with mine- as for the whose better McCain v. Obama thing-i have to say they're both dipshits...
Lets go back to "bigbadwolfs" coment before you all curse me out and what not. but heres my reasoning- ill start with Obama-clear enough-he talks about change but not how he will change it...have you ever heard of filibustering...watch for the debates thats what he'll do. oh and of course he'll say what needs to be changed again and again and attack the GOP for what they havent changed...and he'll say all this without saying how he'll do it-just wait and see-another strike against Obama-Im sorry but this is AMERICA-if your going to be the leader of a country then you should definitly salute the flag and pledge allegiance-i dont care what your religion says-which his religion does not say that he cant salute the American flag or pledge allegiance-the only religion that i know of that says you cannot salute or pledge allegiance and is of some concern in america is Jehovahs witness. And he is not a Jehovahs witness because theyre not allowed to run for public office either. I mean seriously if you arent going to salute the AMERICAN flag or pledge allegiance then you have no right running for any kind of public office but especially for Commander in Chief-President. Plus his wife is an absolute BITCH who has no manners and is very uncouthe.
Now McCain...oh McCain-this video really does hurt his image doesnt it. well your right he has no experience in economics which i must say is definitly an important highlight of this election-and the worst part is he "SEEMS" ignorant about it to. of course he might just be "arrogant" and be saying that the economy is ok just so that people will hear it and think the economy is under control. However he does have a lot of foreign policy and military experience which i can also tell you will definitly be of major concern-even more so than the economy-i can tell you this because im currently in the military right now-im in navy reserve currently but come february ill be a Navy SEAL, and trust theres some crazy shit happening right now that will require an experinced leader-however they did say that JFK was un-experinced but he actually did quite well when it came to foreign policy and military in fact he's the one who even came up with the idea for the Navy SEALS so i guess i should thank him for a job. But back to McCain-i will say-your right it will be more of the same-but with Obama it will be more of the unknown-which could be good or bad-and as for making a decision with that in mind-i chose McCain becuase atleast there wont be any surprises-plus we'll stay in war which means ill get more money-you could call me a war profiteer but hey the military pays more during wartime-but also Palin is a freaking MILF-and she gets my vote just for that-because nobody else has anything to offer in my eyes-McCain-sucks and is old and ugly -Obama sucks and is young and im not gay but Palin-she may suck but she's still hot-and keep in mind if your voting for McCain your really voting for Palin because McCains really old and he'll probably croke before his term is up. Just my opinion-i tried to be independent and level headed and-but my votes really a coin toss and its going to Palin just because shes hot-i really wish the democrats could have come up with someone better than Obama-because i wont vote for a president that wont honor what im fighting and for and could quite possibly die for.
Frogman... it's a joke right? You're voting for Palin 'cause she's hot? If you are truly a navy seal ... do you believe in God still? Just curious. Have you been over-seas yet? Have you been at war yet? Have you experienced another culture yet? Palin believes that the Bible (a book, written by a bunch of men) is the "word of God". You think that is really true? Would you want her telling you why you should die? Have you served in Iraq yet?
Saluting the flag and pledge allegiance does not a leader of a country make.
Obama actually talks a lot about ideas of how to fix things and how to change things.
I'm sure you could still be employed even if we were not at war... officially at war that is. You know as well as I do you could always go for special ops of some sort later if you actually get your badge... or become a private contractor, which I'm sure would be even more exciting and lucrative. There's always work to be had somewhere.
Did you know that the rest of the entire world is voting 4 to 1 for Obama? Why do you suppose that is?
Did you know that we are only 1/20th of the population of the rest of the world?
Did you ever stop to wonder why we are waging wars in so many places around the globe?
Did you ever stop to wonder why we are at war in the first place?
Did you ever stop to wonder what you are really dying for if you do die?
If you do die in the military, you're certainly not dying to "save our country" or "keep it free". You're dying because someone with a lot of money told a politician what to do and where to send our "troops."
I don't believe for ONE GODDAMN SECOND you are what you say you are; you're far too inarticulate; far too illiterate; and way too narrow-minded in your views. Navy SEALS tend to accept people with intelligence and sensibility.....qualities, which I might add....you have failed to show here.
As to what you've said, I'll just make it as short as I can. Fair enough? Okay. Here goes:
- During Obama's speech at the Democratic Convention...he WAS very specific in his comments, as to what he'd do if he became President. VERY specific. All you have to do, is go back, and look it up. The Internet can come in handy for that.
- Is saluting th flag and take reciting the Pledge the threshold for what passes as Presidential material? Or "patriotic" American?? Is THAT it?? Well, that's aALL these fucking Republicans have been doing for the last 8 years (besides fucking everything up). Whether or not someone can recite The Pledge of Allegiance or wear a fucking lapel....like...really....why should you or anyone else give a shit? Ain't you supposed be looking at the SUBSTANCE of the person....as opposed to whether or not they wear a freakin' pin??
- The shot at his wife was cheap and uncalled for, and only indicated the particular mindset you're coming from.
- If you're willing to give your vote to Palin, simply because you think she's "hot", then I suggest to you, that YOU, my dear swabbie, are the one who cares not a wit for your nation, and are basically ready to flush it down the toilet, by turning it over this mosse-humping, religious zealot trollop from Alaska.
- One of your nations most revered Presidents was Abraham Lincoln and he had NO military service, was NOT a POW, started out as a lawyer, went on to become a Senator and was from Illinois. Does that sound like someone you know TODAY??? Figure it out.
- You want to bring up "patriotism" and "flags"? Okay....well, why no mention outta YOU, about the fact that Obama's grandfather served in Pattons Army, and helped liberate Nazi death camps in Europe?? Huh? And that his grandfather helped pass down those same values to HIM Or did you know that? Or did you even CARE to effing know that? No? Good. Stick to your lapel pins. They mean SOOOOOO much.
So....whoever you REALLY are....consider yourself properly dealt with.
Frog, stick to defending our country, you don't have to defend the Pres, or congress or any canidate. It doesn't matter, I understand that feeling of hating anyone that speaks baddly of all veterans. That's not your job. In combat your job is to stay alive, please do that for us, I for one don't want any children here to be without a parent.
Vote for whom you like, but don't get into a political fight. Stay safe. and Thanks
Frog, you got one point right: It is predictable what McCain and Palin will do. The result will be a further slide down for the USA and some collateral damage to the rest of the world.
The USA are the like a new Roman empire and are going down the same slope: Decadence and arrogance.
"Did you know that the rest of the entire world is voting 4 to 1 for Obama? Why do you suppose that is?
Did you know that we are only 1/20th of the population of the rest of the world?"
That is the most outrageous argument I have heard. The implication is that we should support Obama because supposedly the rest of the world does? Well then I pose this question,
Does the rest of the world have the US's best interest at heart?
You are a fool if you think so. I have a feeling there are somewhere around a billion people in communist China that couldnt give a fuck what happens in the US so long as it doesent hurt their economic standing. People will do anything to get ahead, and thats sort of the reason why we dont let other countries pick our leaders, or have any kind of a say in our elections. If they could obviously they would pick someone who would benefit them teh greatest, and probably, most likely, definitely, at a cost to America.
So I guess the whole point is with that in mind if its true that its 4 to 1 in support for Obama on the world scene what does that mean they think he will do for teh US? or for them?
And Im sorry but if youre canadian or some other nationality your opinion on this matter doesent really have a lot of impact for the reasons stated above. I guess basically if you really genuinely dont want what is best for this country please dont waste time by getting in this discussion.
Oh yeah, that is exactly one of the effects I was waiting for: "The rest of the world likes Obama, so lets vote for McCain to show them who is boss!"
If you could guarantee to go down silently without starting more wars or even a nuclear one I would say "Go ahead and fuck you!". The rest of the world is going to feel a lot less pain than the people in the USA when the US economy goes down the drain.
You'll notice I never actually said to vote for McCain, I infact never even said the name McCain in my previous post. I am just trying to point out something that should NOT be a reason why you vote for someone.
Well, considering that half- of my family ARE Americans, I'd say that this would entitle me to a platform to opine....yes?
Or how about the simple concept of FREE SPEECH or FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION? Does THAT wash with YOU?
Or are you one of these flag-waving, lapel-pin-wearing whack-jobs, who think that the OOO-ESSS-EHH is the only nation that adheres to these principles?
Not a Navy Seal, But i am deployed with The U.S Army, and i dont get to see much of the debates back home or what not, however From what iv'e read and expirenced i feel most of the military is going to vote McCain, probly not due to his military involment but his plans for supporting our troops, ie GI Bill improvments, Vet's Medical coverage, USAA improved finance options, all of which obama is neglecting.
Don't get me wrong, theres alot i dont know know about both partys, does anyone have any good info/sites i could browse?
Laters, Oh, and thebug, why Reserves man, if your gonna do somthing why half ass it... prolly not gonna make SEAL either, and thats fact. odds are not with ya.
Hm, did you check what GWB really did for the veterans and the men in service? Check it out and ask yourself again if you would want this party to run your country for any longer.
The comparison between the Roman Empire and the US is valid. As the empire tried to expand, it emptied its treasury, and Its coinage, having started out as pure silver, became far less than pure.
Rome had Emperors who were totally insane and feared any man who showed the least amount of skill or intelligence in either running an army or running the government. The Games bled the empire as thousands died and free grain was given to the poor people of Rome to keep them happy. Slaves worked the empire's farms and factories and mines.
The result of the globalization promoted by Caesars, and the many corrupt government officials was that the empire fell even as its legions battled in the field to attain Roman Hegemony. In the end there was no Rome when they returned.
First of all-I didnt say I was a Navy Seal-I said im in reserve trying to become a SEAL-2nd scored on 89 out of 99 on the ASVAB-thats the test you have to take to get into the military- the lowest acceptable score is a 35-so of course i scored high as you can see-i was top ten percent in my class-i speak 2 languages besides english and my IQ is 128. SO DONT INSULTE MY INTELLIGENCE! Im smarter than most of you i can gaurantee-just because i decide to not punctuate my sentence on a video comment or i happen to mistype a word doesnt mean im braindead. Also the military said that i had class A on my mental and physical abilities which means i could basically pick any job that i wanted-and just so you know i was almost in charge of the nuclear missiles on submarines-but i didnt want to be on a sub. oh and slabolis its me on reserve not the bug-and i didnt choose to be on reserve and at first i wasnt-my Basic MOS is "AIRC Advanced" im an E4 and i did search and rescue mission for downed pilots in the ocean also i was in charge of the weapons operations on helicopters and in flight diagnostics. im only on reserve because they are making me do indoctrination which means i have to take monthly test both pen and paper and physical test to make sure that i stay qualified...so actually im a very good candidate for SEAL-so thanks and i know you didnt mean it because i didnt say what i already was...
ok so after defending my intellegence from an attack from canuck...
I have to say i agree 100% with
So i have to agree with ares. This is an election for the president of the US-i dont give a fuck what the world thinks-this doesnt concern you guys like canada or england or germany-thats right i know where your all from...but it concerns the American people-actually yes your right it does concern the other countries to-but to all you from other countries-you get to decide whether to be an allie of america-or stay the fuck out-you get to choose your leaders just like we do-and there the ones that keep getting you guys involved-and yes your right were a small population of the world-ok i agree just because thats fact and fact is fact-but china isnt involved in the vote-nor india nor any other country- and i will agree that America is just like the Roman Empire-yes were fucked-we can already see it in this election...ok and just because obama has a grandfather that was in the military doesnt mean shit about his patriotism-HES NOT HIS GRANDFATHER-example-my great great grandfather owned slaves in Alabama-does that make me a racist-NO-in fact-i grew up in an african american community-and thus being raised in an african american community-i actually prefer to hang out with african americans over white people-and i get along with african americans-so your argument that obama is patriotic because his grandfather fought in the military means nothing-its INVALID!-because im sure that alot of the protestors of america in the 60's-you know those "hippies" that were all for communism and called the soldiers babykillers-yeah im sure they had alot of relatives who served in the military-but they themselves werent patriotic-and yes patriotism has alot to do with choosing a leader-it shows that they genuinely care for the country they are about to be responsible for-its called HONOR-COURAGE-COMMITMENT-and thats the most important part of being a leader-it means your actually going to do something about the fucked up shit thats in action. and not just talk about it. and im not saying i like McCain either-and to be honest the "voting for palin because shes hot" comment was to be taken lightly because some of you guys are way to uptight-and really it just means that im throwing my vote in the air-and so what about her views on religion-I believe in a God-now please lets not get into an endless argument about religion because nobody will win-plus religion is not fact-I REPEAT RELIGION ISNT FACT-nobody knows for sure whether there IS OR IS NOT a God-so either side of the argument could be right or wrong-and yes i took 6 years of religious studies-i know what im talking about when it comes to religion-and no i dont think that "christians are right and everyone else is wrong" narrow minded point of view-i dont know whos right because i havent died-maybe the muslims are right or the buddhist are right i dont know-nobody does and if you say you do your the most ignorant fool on earth. now off of religion...and yes well maybe my comment against Obamas wife was uncalled for you must remember-they are married-so they obviously love each other and agree with each others point of views otherwise they wouldnt be able to stand each other-im not saying they think about everything the same-but they still share atleast somewhat of a mindset-and if your going to say my comment was uncalled for against someone and then you yourself make a comment that mean and unfactual about someone else-like your comment against Palin-im sure she's never humped a mousse-she doesnt have a penis and im pretty sure the mousse would kill her-they are very violent creatures. and slabolis brings up a very good point about the GI bill which i forgot to mention-McCain is the only of the two candidates who has mentioned it-and the GI bill is probably the most important thing to anyone who serves...and that would be really the only real reason that i will vote for McCain rather than not voting at all.-Thank you and have a nice day-and im open to hear all your comments whether or not i agree with them or not-especially on religion-you shouldnt talk against a religion-unless you have actually studied it-and truly understand it-
Shit man, you are demonstrating very nicely what is so wrong with the USA: Too many people there think the USA are the center of the world. You are not, but that does not mean what you do does not affect other nations.
Besides the fact that I do have friends in the USA who I care for this world is so interconnected that if one of the major nations misfunctions everyone will feel the pain. So it is an issue for the rest of the world who gets elected in the USA, or Russia, or China (if they would actually vote), or much of Europe and several other nations.
Regarding the patriotism thing: Not supporting a stupid and damaging decision made by the government is unpatriotic? I think supporting politics that damage your country is unpatriotic.
Especially when you are in the military you should be eager for a responsible government that does not send you into a war for monetary interests. Or are you one of the defunct types who want to fight for the fun of it, rather than seeing it as a necessary service to support your ideals?
Having been both a hippie and a so called baby killer in the 60s, I would state that you're no frogman, I knew frogmen and you're not one.
Comparing the 60s to now? 1st lets restart the draft, end of story.
So how come you don't hold political leaders to those standards? You know....like Dick Cheney (five-time draft deferment during 'Nam), or Georgie-Boy (joined the Texas Air Guard to get out of 'Nam....then went AWOL from THERE).
Huh?
Or do those traits not apply to THEM?
Those fucking cowards are a disgrace, and should have all been dragged out and shot at dawn, just for all the other Americans they sent to die, if for no other reason.
apparently some do...and no i dont have a writing disability its just i'm visit glumbert at work while im on breaks-so i dont have the time to cross my t's and dot my i's and i usually only have 15 minutes to write all that
No REALLY no one cares.
Besides that who ever gets voted in your country will still be hated around the muslim,Latin,soviet worlds.
Your real friends are us. We also got oil ,water,wood,coal,uranium,and other metals your country needs. We even have walmart where all things are made in china. Now that's where to start to get back your country . Start the boycott of Walmart.
and podman-i can say that even though-if we were to compare our views with each other they would very vastly on certain subjects-but i really really agree with you on alot of things you say-and i believe that no matter who gets in office-America is past saving-and i will say no more-on this atleast
frogman frogman frogman... you have some good points but you are faar too defensive about all of this. Let me tell you as teh old addage goes its easier to kill a man then to change his mind. No use getting all spun up. Every spec ops person I have ever worked with ranks among the most laid back people i have ever met, its a valuable asset.
why and what is the right and left? we label one as liberal, why? It's the same with red and blue states, the press/TV etc, that label. I was a Goldwater GOP fundraiser growing up, not a right winger or a red stater, I just liked his take on the things, like the "bill of rights." He was the last GOP member I would support.
we also got out and voted, which seems to be hard for some people and not allowed to others.
There are seven sharks in the tank with the economy.
* And the first is financialization because we%u2019re so dependent on this industry that%u2019s sort of half lost its marbles. * The second is that you have this huge buildup of debt, absolutely unprecedented anywhere in the world. * The third is you%u2019ve now got home prices collapsing. * The fourth is you%u2019ve got global commodity inflation building up. * The fifth is you%u2019ve got flawed and deceptive government economics statistics. * The sixth is that you%u2019ve got what they call peak oil where the world is, to some extent, running out of oil. So it%u2019s not just commodity inflation, it%u2019s a shortage of oil. * And then the last thing is the collapsing dollar.
Now, whenever you get this sort of package in one decade, you got a big one. And when Greenspan says it%u2019s a once a century, I think it%u2019s another variation but on a par with the Thirties.
%u2013 Kevin Phillips, in a conversation with Bill Moyers,
If McCain kicks the bucket (highly likely scenario) you end up with Palin
If Obama gets assasinated (hopefully an unlikely scenario but there are enough racists in the US to make it a possibility) then you end up with Biden
Vote Obama for no other reason than he is clearly a better candidate to naturally survive his first term, and if for some reason he doesn't then his running mate is far less of a novice than Palin
The American electorate is faced once again with a choice between two candidates, neither of whom is particularly well qualified for the job. This is a reflection on the hollywood style road-shows "preliminaries", a.k.a. the Primaries, that throw all who pursue the job (few credentials are required) before the American public in as many entertaining forums as possible. Little revelatory discourse results as the players seek to appeal to the largest voter groups. Inevitably, those who pander best are nominated, and those who can be misquoted easiest (or worse, accurately quoted in a misstatement) fall by the wayside...keeping in mind of course, there is a VP job as a possible consolation prize.
The national conventions of both parties are a blot - no, a smear - on the face of the republic fashioned by our vaunted forefathers. Mere excuses for self-congratulatory excesses, each reaches forgone conclusions at great expense, and of course, the obligatory sensationalistic hooplah. A lot of people are drunk for three or four consecutive days, and go home feeling they have done the country a valuable service...at no personal cost, of course.
Anyone who believes I am critical simply because I am not among the freeloaders invited to the party is, of course, absolutely correct. Well, not really...THEY would still be parasites on the system, while I, of course, would be the single pristine participant hoping for nothing but truth, justice, and the amurikin way, hypothetically speaking, that is.
Despite the possiblilities of either or both:
I do not believe McCain will die in office....I do believe, however, and iimportantly, that he is a one-term president.
I do not believe Obama will be assassinated. I do believe, however, that his lack of depth, as in a different model with Bush, would be exposed.
Shoot me. McCain for one term. No third-year distractions with posing for a second run at the office....one focused term on regaining resect in the world for our country. And on addressing the mortgaged economy of the country.
And on and on.
While our economy might be afire, and world opinion inflamed, no one is playing a fiddle here....as the outrageous offenses are exposed the public is more and more aroused and demanding of at least some level of justice, if not retribution.
I think this period of embarassment may be coming to a difficult, and perhaps agonizing close over the coming months. Actually, I think that may happen regardless who is elected...but.......
I am inclined toward the strong and purposeful presence McCain can bring to the office. If not Colin Powell, who evaded candidacy, and is therefore absent. If not Ron Paul, who made sense but was made little more than a comical figure in his run for acceptance, and is therefore not a candidate. If not Newt Gingrich, who had almost revolutionary ideas, but no fan support, and therefore is not a candidate (thank god). If not.............. Hillary....NOT Hillary....NOT HILLARY, NOT a candidate....and neither is Bubba.
And then who else...the possibilities are so diminished by the vetting process. No one who ever got a DUI, or were arrested for marijuana use, or who went through an ugly divorce, or whose child was involved in an ugly public issue, or....or....or....sheesh, I am totally pure, and I would not subject myself to that sort of excorciating examination.
OK........totally pure might have been an overstatement (or is that "under"statement?). It's not like I was a friggin biker, but, well , y'know.....
I like church. Really.
I've had my little fun here today. Hope no one takes offense. Nice to see some of the solid posters back on line.
As Bill Clinton might say: "GO PALIN".
As I would say: GO SOX.
(but I'd leave my phone number with the Sarah person, not Papi.)
"the possibilities are so diminished by the vetting process. No one who ever got a DUI, or were arrested for marijuana use, or who went through an ugly divorce"
Such purity is not a requirement as per McCain being a wife cheater, and then divorced. And of course Palin is also divorced.
Why do you think there is no discussion of "Family Values" this time around.
McCain can appoint a member of his cabinet who is an expert on the economy, and get a friggin secretary to type emails. Obama knows diddly about anything, except speaking well.
We are currently in two wars, with another one potentially looming. Russia is becoming agressive. Which expertise is more needed now?
And where does anyone get this Palin is a Jesus-freak stuff? I'm sure people could string together just as many out-of-context God-boy comments from Obama. If you're going to regurgitate rumors, at least back them with obvious distortions and half-truths from clearly biased left-wing sources. Its the least you can do.
Bug, your link isn't loading yet. I'll keep trying. But I hope I can't find any similar links of Obama's minister trashing America. :-(
In a way she's right. If you believe in God, or even in a humanist view of the world, all men are equal, all men have rights, all men want freedom. After we slaughtered a few thousand Iraqis, they will get the equality, rights, and freedom they did not have under Saddam. God probably wouldn't care how many died in the process, as the Islamic fascists would probably agree. Do I think invading Iraq was God's plan? I think Iraq needed invading for many reasons, none of them involving God wispering in my ear. But who better to fight the religious wackos, than the other religious wackos! So you should vote for Palin, so we have a strong crusader in power!
Anyway, you've proven Palin is no more religious nut-job then Obama. When she starts saying nukes are God's little erasers, my ears will perk up.
Russia is becoming defensive due to NATO encroachment. If Russia were doing to the US, what we are doing to them, we would be bombing Moscow by now. They are actually being remarkably restrained.
Haha, well put.
In response to thebug above ok first of all you do realize she did NOT say that Iraq was Gods plan, she said pray that our leaders have a plan, and that that plan is Gods plan. What do you think she might have meant by that? Maybe she believes a free and safe Iraq is a good plan? Is that a bad thing? If you are not christian you can at least examine her intentions and morals, and hoping that our troops are safe and that our leaders have a plan sounds pretty good to me. Its just a pretty lame thing to attack someone for. If you want to see some real religious nutcases you really dont have to look that hard. But to see Palin as one you have to stretch it pretty damn far.
Bug, You're threshold for what qualifies a person as a religious nutjob appears to be anyone that prays for anything. And what a crazy nutjob to dare inspire children to pray! You are simply a God hating aethist. I may not be very religious myself, but I don't hold anyone's faith against them. Its only when they force their faith on others, or use their faith to justify evil, that I get pissed off.
Once a political leader (especially in the U.S.) intertwines their own religious beliefs, with that of their duties as elected officials......THEN you've got not only a "religious nutjob" on your hands.....but a dangerous, misguided zealot as well. Separation of Church and State......remember?
If people want a RELIGIOUS leader, they should go to Iran, and take orders from an Ayatollah or an Imam or a Caliph and live under THEM for a while. If they want a POLITICAL leader, then they should make sure that whomever they elect will do JUST THAT.....execute their duties from an impartial, non-denomenational perspective.
Why do people like yourself despise what your Founding Fathers intended?
They wanted not only "freedom OF religion".....but "freedom FROM religion", as well.
No what's with all the insults Canuck, do you really need another enemy? I believe in seperation of church and state. Does that mean we need to remove the ten commandments from courthouses, remove the God reference from money, and political leaders may not express any religious opinion? The founding fathers who created the constitution were all religious men, they all believed in God. They just kept the constitution non-denominational. We don't want government controlling churches and vice-versa. We don't want the government swearing allegiance to the pope. Does that mean politicians are required by law to be aethist? Maybe in your ideal. The US has a long tradition of leaders at least pretending to be religious, even Clinton pretended to believe in God between blow-jobs. So when did Palin say "God commanded me to do" something? Why do you believe Palin can't lead in an impartial, non-denomenational way?
And how is Palin more of a religious nut-job than Obama, who's minister wants God to damn America? Your so biased, you can't see reality.
Ok, I'll grant you its hard to hate God if you don't believe in God. But you can hate people who believe in God. As Jesse would say, "religion is a crutch for the weak minded", well you probably believe that.
Now find me an exact quote where Palin says "Gods will build a pipeline", especially since she believes there is only one true God. Besides, you can pray for a pipeline, and you can hire Mexicans to build a pipeline, and guess which strategy is more effective? I think even Gov. Palin understands that.
And you're right, I must have a high threshold for bullshit, since I'm still bothering to respond to your comments.
Because you gotta be WAY down there, for everything to keep going over your noggin, the way it does.
I never said politicians should be "required to be atheists"; READ IT AGAIN. I said...that ALL politicians, regardless of what their personal beliefs are (atheist or not) should NEVER, EVER let fuckin' religion play ANY basis in their decision-making process. Like, what IS IT ABOUT THAT, THAT YOU CANNOT/WILL NOT FUCKING COMPREHEND?? Seriously. It's like trying to argue with a bucket of paint. And as for where or when Palin made her "God" reference, showing her stupidity in making decisions....why bother giving you cut-and-pasted links? You ain't gonna believe it anyways, because you're too much of a fucking brain-washed right-wing hack; and yes, I could could give you REAMS of links showing this. But I'm not even gonna waste the energy.
".....even Clinton pretended to believe in God between blow-jobs."
Maybe.
BUT.....he did NOT make decisions according to whatever religious beliefs he may or may not have had (unlike Bush, Palin and even worse, McSame, who now is trying to pander to the evangelical fuckheads). GET IT NOW???
"....Does that mean we need to remove the ten commandments from courthouses, remove the God reference from money, and political leaders may not express any religious opinion?"
Simple answer to those points:
1. Yes.
2. Yes (any IDEA how, why or when the "God" reference was added to your money, Einstein? It's a fucking sick joke...more-so because it's true).
3. Yes, they can....PROVIDED....they make clear that it does NOT play a part in how they execute their duties, as impartial civil servants. Business is business....personal is personal.
Like I said already....stop being so fucking Un-American, and move to a theocracy like Iran, if that's what you want.
And take your right-wing, flag-waving, lapel-pin-wearing lunatics with you.
Helldiver, did you ever watch the video to which I provided the link at the beginning of this thread? If not, you of course have no idea what I am talking about.
And, yes, I think people who are deeply religious are weak of mind and dangerous.
Canuck, the German Wehrmacht (Army) in World War II had "Gott mit uns" (God with us) on their belt buckles. So I would not care where they put god references, they come cheap.
But on a court house it would be more fitting to have the constitution than the 10 commandments. And since we are on the topic: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SyWEBbFwU1o
...while on the other hand, some are simply gifted with full-time foolery, even when relaxed.
We are all and each convicted by our conscience and are "wrong" only when we act against it. Unfortunately, we each form our conscience from different insights and experiences...that damnable gift of free choice really generates all sorts of entertaining, and sometimes deadly, "right" actions.
Thanks, but all of my comments are based on simple observation, and not emotion. Being unemotional and using rational thought used to be the mark of a real man in America, now we are a rare breed.
Canuck, I try to reason with you, and you prove you're a dick. Usually when you resort to insults, you've already lost the arguement.
"I said...that ALL politicians, regardless of what their personal beliefs are should NEVER, EVER let fuckin' religion play ANY basis in their decision-making process. "
This was not exactly the intent of the founding fathers, but can you name one decision that Palin, McCain, or Bush actually used religion to decide? Most politicians from either side, just fake religion to pander to voters with religious beliefs. It just so happens that republicans currently win most of the religionist vote, so they pander to that, as all slimey politicians do. Just like Democrats pander to those who practice the religion of climate change, earth first, and socialism.
You don't know shit about Palin's decision making ability, you're just spewing crap. You hate her because she's right-wing, supports guns, knows global warming is bullshit, and wants smaller government. Obviously in your mind she always makes the wrong decisions, so must be her decision making process is flawed right?
"....Does that mean we need to remove the ten commandments from courthouses, remove the God reference from money, and political leaders may not express any religious opinion?
Simple answer to those points:
1. Yes.
2. Yes
3. Yes, they can....PROVIDED....they make clear that it does NOT play a part in how they execute their duties, as impartial civil servants. Business is business....personal is personal. "
You've just identified yourself as a left-wing religion hating aethist nutjob. Should we ban saying "Merry Christmas" at Walmart to? How about praying in schools?
"Like I said already....stop being so fucking Un-American, and move to a theocracy like Iran, if that's what you want. "
I never said I want religion to run America, I said politicians are allowed to have a religion, and maybe even use their own personal morals and spirituality to help them decide on issues. Iranians chose their leaders by theocracy, they don't get to vote for real issues. That is not American.
Frankly, it is hardly un-American to mix religion and politics, in fact its tradition. No president ever got elected without at least pretending to be religious. An open aethist candidate for president would be doomed. But I do find it very helpful when a Canadian defines for me what is American, and what is un-American. Thank you very little. I shall now print your comments for later ass wiping.
"And take your right-wing, flag-waving, lapel-pin-wearing lunatics with you.
Fuuuuuuuck."
Nice projection of all your frustrations in life onto the republican party. Were you abused as a child? And please keep your left-wing, flag-burning, tree-hugging, prius-driving hippies in Canada. Perhaps you need some Zoloft?
So not believing in religion makes people smarter? I agree that putting all faith in religion, completely beyond reason, makes one a dumbass. But if someone else wants to believe in God, UFOs, or the flying spagetti monster, its no sweat of my balls, and I don't think it makes them dangerous... or stupid (harder to say that one with a straight face). Its when you use religious extremism to justify a political means, as al Qaeda does, that's when you're dangerous. That doesn't mean all Muslims are dangerous. Religion can be a source of good, if its feeding the poor, helping children (and not molesting them), providing charities of all kind, rather than forcing tax payers to do this. I believe religion has been used to justify great evil in the past, but I don't believe God (if he exists) would condone such behavior. If God did, he's no God I would worship. However, Stalin was plenty evil, and fully aethist.
I tried to load your link again, pretty much nothing from you-tube works for me (at work).
As for our education system. Religion isn't taught in public schools anymore. The schools need fixing, but mostly because they waste too much money, are all union with no accountability, and teach all kids to the lowest common denominator. I'm all for tax credits on your property tax, if you chose to put your kids in a private school. Get government out of the school business, give it back to parents. You either believe government can solve all your problems for you, or it only fucks things up. I'm of the latter.
Soooo......when I see your President like I did on TV last night in his address, telling YOU that YOUR economy is about of fucking go tits up in an economic crises that rivals the Great Depression......well.....whom do the banks and brokers go crying to for a bail-out of almost a TRILLION DOLLARS of taxpayers money?
What's your point? I never said anything about the government bailout. It truly is privatizing the gains and socializing the loses. This is like sawing off the patients leg, so the gangrene doesn't spread and kill him.
Socialising capitalism is more democrat leaning than republican, so the fact that a republican president is calling for this, is truly scary, and shows how bad this economy truly is. I've always said I'm for smaller government, and the government generally only fucks things up.
In fact, I would argue all of the current economic problems in America are a direct result of fucked up government intervention. High gas prices fueled by the government bans on offshore and ANWR drilling. High food prices fed by government subsidized ethanol production, which is near worthless as a solution to our energy problems. The housing crisis built by government de-regulation of banking, implicit government backing of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and both parties practically forcing banks to make easy mortgages, to show how much their party cares about getting everyone in their own home.
Americans have been encouraged by capitalism and government to live beyond their means, rack up debt, by a home they can't afford, and buy, buy, buy, with absolutely no savings for entirely too long. It used to be good for the economy. Now we finally realize its unsustainable. Americans need to learn to live within their means. I'm personally afraid any government bailout only sets a precedent, so banks expect bailouts in the future.
All I've just seen you do here, is make the opposite argument (without you realizing it):
It's PRECISELY because the Republicans in the last 8 years have downsized, outsourced, de-regulated, became LESS involved, failed in any kind of direct oversight.....that this mess is currently unfolding.
It was the concept of LESS government that caused this shit.....and now there are people who are crying for MORE government to fix it.
And what do McSame and Palin have to say about this?
Sweet fuck-all.
(unless you count McSame saying, as recently as three weeks ago, "the economy's fundamentally STRONG, people! It's all good!" )
helldiver, good education takes away influence from religion. I am not happy with the education system we have here, but it is significantly better than the one in the USA. The problem is lack of accountability and low standards (same here), much of that fueled by the stupid concept that all children are equal.
High gas prices are caused by excessive use and the high demand the emerging countries have created. Oil is a limited resource, exploiting it and wasting it like it is done now is stupid.
Canuck, the funny thing about this crisis is that the real economy, the companies that really produce stuff, does not feel a lot of it.
We had the annual assembly of the German electronics industry association (ZVEI) yesterday and everybody I talked with said the same: Business is strong and growing, even though everybody is a little nervous that something might spill over from the banks.
Canuck, I realize everything I say. The only reason the de-regulation was an issue, was because at the same time government was giving Fannie and Freddie the backing of implicit bailout. These companies then over-extended themselves, with too many mortgages and not enough capital backing them, pushed on by both parties in congress. Had Fannie and Freddie been completely private, without government backing, they would not have taken the financial risks they did.
And three weeks ago, the full extent of this economic crunch was not yet fully realized. AIG had not yet fallen.
The SEC should set the rules of capitalism, and watch for corruption and cheating, but otherwise stay out of the way.
I fully hope the FBI nails some greedy CEOs to the wall.
Bug, I agree a complete lack of education leads to ignorance, not necessarily tied to religion. Often when you can't read, you get your info from your priest/Imam/rabbi etc. So I agree all should be educated. You'll notice the ME has some of the lowest literacy rates in the world, something like 70%. Poverty and oppression also leads to extremist religion, both something education can help with. But I don't think education in the US or Europe is so poor, that its driving people into religion. Often very intelligent and very educated people believe in religion.
I also agree not all children are equal, at least in intelligence, and not all will learn at the same rate. That's why we have short buses in the states. Children should be taught to the highest level they can achieve, not all taught to pass some very low and basic test. (Bush's leave no child behind) Another fine example of government stepping in and fucking something up. Give citizens the right (and tax back) to send their kids to private schools, not to government indoctrination centers. Of course, some of these private schools might be... religious... AAAHHHH!
The cost of oil is driven by supply and demand. I agree demand is up in developing nations, and we do waste too much gas. But the government artificially restricting supply for bogus environmental concerns is wrong. The environmental drilling disasters of decades past are very much minimized with modern drilling techniques. We should be increasing supply, at the same time as developing new technology to replace oil. Even if the cost of gas doesn't change a dime, if we develop more US oil, that's more oil company royalties being paid to the government. We're talking billions... That helps balance the budget, reduce trade deficits, even pay for obscene bailout packages.
This economic crisis will trickle to us all. It will destroy individual retirement accounts, reduce the ability for businesses to get loans, and most of all, reduce customers and businesses ability to pay for products from your unaffected company. It doesn't matter if your company has capital, if no one can buy your electronics.
Myself, I'm an engineer develping medical devices. When you need one of these, you find the money or its paid by insurance. I hope my job is unaffected, but could still lose my 401k.
Granted oil drilling technology has improved, though still there is leakage and the environment is sufficently fucked up as it is now.
Also trying to add new resources takes many years, so the crisis is likely over when the new oil becomes available. Right now the logical drive of for efficiency couple with renewable energy. I think the whole energy sector will look quite changed in 10 years from now.
Regarding middle east: If you look up history what Europe and America has done there in the last 100 years you get a good idea why they don't like us very much.
Bug, natural oil seepage into the worlds ocean dwarfs all the spills mankind has ever done. There are always risks, we can mitigate them to a minimum. Drilling does not help us immediately, does that mean we do nothing to plan for the future? Why bother educating our children, that doesn't help us now? We do want to develop renewable energy, but that's a long time out, we need oil development for the transition.
I'm very aware of history, and Muslims have good reason to dislike us. But since only 70% of them are literate anyway, not many of them know the history! Maybe we shouldn't try to educate them? ;-)
Wasting oil by buring it is not a good idea at all. We need it as chemical base material and it has to last a lot longer than it would if we increased supply which also reduces the pressure on optimizing and replacing.
Illiteracy is a big part of the problem, people have the clerics think for them as you pointed out. But also part of the problem is how the USA and many other countries behave towards the muslim states.
I do believe the problems with Iran would be cut back by 90% if the next president of the USA would visit Iran and offer a sincere apology for what the USA did there in the last century. The whole mess with the nuclear program in Iran has much to do with wanting to be respected and treated as equals.
Whatever you use oil for, you need a supply of it. Drilling offshore provides more of that supply, and its ten year out anyway. So if alternative energy ever does become practical, its got a ten years head start right? In ten years, if oil is obsolete, we can always leave it in the ground.
People behave the way they do towards Muslim states, often because of the actions of those very Muslim states. Which state has cartoons teaching children about killing Israelis? Palestine. Which state has public executions by chopping off heads? Saudi Arabia. Which state shouts "Death to America" and "Death to Israel" every chance it gets? Iran. Which state (other than Germany) gassed its own citizens to death? Iraq. These are not normal societies, they should not be treated as such.
Imagine Mr. anti-religion, how you would treat a midievil Spain surviving to this modern age?
And if the next US president apologizes to Iran, after our embassy was invaded and US citizens held hostage for over a year, I'll take shots at him myself. Of course, I wouldn't have to, because the sound-bites echoing in 2012 would lose him the election.
Ignoring history does not help understand todays situation. Look back to 1900-1960 and what the USA and other nations did in the region. Especially have a look at what dealings the USA had with Reza Pahlevi. Invading the embassy and keeping a few people hostage was almost negligible compared to that.
Which country is the most important ally of Saudi Arabia? That always seems to slip my mind.
Israel and Palestine to me look like two children who would deserve a good beating from the parents. Many of the people in both states just want to live in peace, but there are extremists on both sides which make this impossible.
As for a medieval country surviving into today, that is a totally different situation (i would isolate such a state), the nations in the middle east are mostly the way they are because of interference by mainly USA, UK, and France. Ever cared to look how the Iraq did throughout the last 100 years?
The comparison of Iraq and Nazi Germany (which quite often is raised in this kind of discussion) is far fetched at best. First of all the strategic situation was totally different. Had the USA not entered the war, Germany and Japan would have divided the rest of the world between them and then gone for the USA together. The holocaust was only secondary at best in the decision to enter the war.
Also the comparison does not apply for the aftermath of the war. Germany had (mostly) a single ethnic group, which Iraq has not. And Germany had been a real democracy before.
Poland had suffered severely under the German rule in WWII. In 1970 the then chancellor Willi Brandt visited Poland and at the memorial for the massacre in Warsaw he fell to his knees. That was the gesture that started normalization of the relations between Germany and Poland.
This would be a good educational example for your next president. Disarming people does not need violence, sometimes the words "I am sorry" are sufficient, or a start at least.
Bug, as a semi-neutral third party, you do have a different viewpoint than me. I know America has done Iran wrong, but also was once a powerful ally to Iran in the past. America did wrong, but also feels wronged by Iran. The feelings run deep on both sides. A simple kiss and make up isn't gonna cut it, certainly not as long as Ahmadinijad is in power. Bush definately missed an opportunity just after Iraq was conquered, to normalize relations with Iran when they were scared shitless. Maybe once Bush and Ahmadinijad are both gone... But frankly Germany was clearly in the wrong with regard to WW2 actions, so a one sided apology made sense.
The US is an ally to Saudi Arabia for three reasons only: to buy their oil, as a military buffer to Iran (the enemy of my enemy is my friend), and because they are now working with us to reform Islamic radicals to reduce terrorism. Which is almost amusing, because Saudi Arabia worked for us to create Islamic radicals, when it was convienient for creating anti-Soviet mujahadeen fighters. The point is, we have a more powerful and cost-effective influence on Saudi Arabia by being their ally, then by invading them. The king of Saudi Arabia is very reform minded, mainly because he fears the Islamic radicals. Saudi society is extremely conservative, and needs time to change. That doesn't mean they aren't a fucked up society.
Saying Israelis and Palestinians behave like children completely glosses over the very deep problems and painful history they have. They may be violent and extremist, but I wouldn't call them children. What's sad, is that Palestinians are so hateful, they teach their children to hate from a young age. I think this is the worst thing imaginable.
The ME nations have survived to this day partly as a medievil society. They have religious extremism, tribalism, poverty, illiteracy, and authoritarian governments. They are partly to be isolated for our safety. However, isolation will never bring them out of the dark ages. They must be given the opportunity to reform, (including supporting democracies) with constant pressure to do so.
I never said the holocaust was any reason the US (or anyone else) declared war on Germany. It probably was not even known about in 1941 by the allies, but certainly was not a danger to US national interests. And true, Japan and Germany were much more united ethnically than Iraq. But certainly Japan was every bit as fanatical and suicidal as Iraqis ever were, and they had no history of democracy. If 1945 Japanese can be democratized, frankly anyone can.
In my opinion, there are two big reasons why Japan and Germany were successfully converted to democracies, and accepted their occupiers. First, they were utterly and completely destroyed. They had few men of military age left alive to resist. They had no weapons coming in from foreign nations to resist with. The occupying forces were incredibly powerful. The people were starving, and dependent on the allies for food and re-building. They had no choice. The Iraqis were not sufficiently crushed militarily to eliminate their ability to resist.
Second, both nations had bigger fears than Allied occupation. West Germany feared invasion by the Soviets. Japan feared retalliation by newly communist China. The Allies quickly went from occupiers to protectors, as you should realize from the Berlin blockade. Iraq was not fearful of invasion by its neighbors.
So no, I'm not ignoring history, I'm very mindful of it. Iran does want to be considered an equal nation, but they need to understand that threatening neighbors and supporting terrorists is the wrong path.
You totally miss the point about Iran. The USA did topple the first democratically elected government in Iran and installed the Shah again who ruled the country for decades with a terror regime not too unlike to what Saddam Hussein has done in the neighbouring country.
How does this compare to storming the embassy and capturing a couple people?
I think an apology is very much in need and it could be a starting point to normalize the relations with Iran.
Another thing the US never understands is that you are dealing with very old cultures in the Middle East, especially in Iran where the culture never totally collapsed like it did in Mesopotamia. Iran had a high culture long before anything in Europe developed beyond sitting under trees, not to talk about America.
While the US did support the Shah, probably for underhanded reasons, the Iranians did all the work themselves. There is some truth to the saying, you get the government you deserve.
Its quite true the US at times supported dictators and brutal governments, but typically to create allies in the greater cold war against the Soviet Union. Its also wierd that the US chose Pakistan for cold war allies, instead of democratic India. It didn't always make sense, and wasn't always planning for the long term very well.
The US can apologize for its wrongs against Iran, just as soon as Iran stops supporting terrorists, threatening to kill its neighbors, and building nuclear weapons. They are a very old society, master chess players. You can't show weakness with them, they're not like you soft Europeans. An apology would probably be wasted on them, and interpreted as weakness.
And while I can appreciate the greatness of past Persian culture, I'm still a little pissed at them for when Xerxes sent his army to invade Greece. Maybe they need to apologize for that!
"Support the Shah", like in encouraging the guy and supplying him with the money and weapons to topple the democracy which was just installed in his country, then making him any ally and supply him with heavy military material?
And all that for oil.
Good comparison with the Persians and Maccedonians, the USA do fit well in character with ancient nations, theay are so much like Rome.
Not true. Romans didn't get so morally worked up about invading another country. Certainly the fate of those currently at Gitmo would be an easy matter, feed them to the lions! No, America is too squeemish about crushing its enemies to last as long as the Roman empire.
Interesting that you brought up Rome though, didn't Hitler used to say something about Germany being the third Reich, in clear reference to Rome? Even had the Eagles on poles. So coming from you, I can't tell if you're honestly trying to warn America not to make the mistakes Germany made, or if you're just completely nieve on your own history, which I doubt. I suspect that Germans have now moved about as far left from Hitler's Nazi germany as they possibly can, out of revulsion over their own history, that they can no longer see the centrist reasoning of a centrist nation.
Yet, somehow you can identify with Iran as the victim, when they support terrorism, want to acquire nukes, and want to destroy the Jews. Its like Iran wants to pick up right where Germany left off. You're reasoning doesn't make sense to me.
Germany (and most of Europe too) has moved forward in political and social evolution far more than the USA have in the last couple decades.
I am comparing the USA to the Roman empire because the faults are very similar. You are thinking you are the center of the world and you behave arrogant. All the while you fail to solve your internal problems and instead try to solve everything with a strong military force.
I don't see the Iran as a victim per se. They did a lot of things that were to nice, or good, or however you would coin it. But in the relations to the USA the USA are definitely at fault. Threatening is not the way to talk with these people.
Did you ever meet any Iranians? They are proud people. Threatening them is counter productive. The nuclear program they run is definitely more a dual meaning ithan a dual use program.
As far as I can tell they don't want to build bombs (now), they need the electrical power because their infrastructure is in really bad shape. They can not refine enough of their own oil to supply their infrastructure, also selling oil is better for them than to burn it for electricity. On the other hand they want to be able to use their potential nuclear bomb as a threat in the future.
Did you really follow the news about Iran? They always say they don't want to build bombs. They do actually work towards nucelar power plants. For them the bomb is just a potential bargaining chip.
Take these people serious and talk to them as equals and it will be no problem to get them to negotiate. But most of the USA even thinks of the Iranians as being Arabs, not a good starting point.
You believe in political and social evolution. That's your first mistake. Communism came from that. Believing mankind as a species is improving, while optimistic, is not realistic. People haven't changed much in 5000 years. Iran will not play by your socially evolved rules. They will exploit them. Do you even support the existing weak UN sanctions?
I have no problem with Iranians as a people. But the nuclear power talk is a ruse. Isn't it as simple or more to build oil refineries and gas turbines, than to build nuclear power plants? You believe Iran when they say they only want to build nuclear power plants, yet the world has caught Iran already with secret nuclear bomb development going on. They are exploiting the dual use arguement, and frankly playing on your nievity and gullibility, to develop nuclear weapons. The latest news is Iran modifying their rockets to carry nuclear weapons, which wouldn't make much sense if they weren't developing nukes now would it?
And Iranians are Persians, always have been. But I'm sure you know what most of the USA believes better than I. The reciprical must then also be true, I know what most Germans believe better than you. I hereby declare that most Germans believe life will be perfect and peaceful, if every nation on Earth just ignore the military build-up and development of WMDs of their neighbors. After all, that's what everyone did in 1939, when Germany was building up its military. That worked out pretty well didn't it?
I do agree that threatening Iran, without any real danger of backing up that threat with force, is meaningless. However, there are military options short of airstrikes. We should set up a military blockade to all Iranian shipping, until they chose to negotiate. Any Iranian ships, trucks, or potentially planes leaving Iranian soil, should be subject to boarding / forced landing and inspection. In this way, we could put some real teeth in sanctions, without killing anyone (that isn't resisting that is), and maybe even stop some terrorist weapon shipments. If this starts a war, then its the Iranians choice.
I've been in many countries, I read news from around the world.
Coming from a German, home of some of the world's greatest war-mongers in history, can you honestly tell me all Germans are so enlightened and peace-worshipping as you? You are the natural evolutionary product of a nation, with one of the worst records of war-mongering, aggression, and shameful war attrocities. The pot has just called the kettle black.
If it were not for the US and its war-mongering ways, you would probably be serving in the Nazi army right now. Busy no doubt exterminating blacks, asians, Arabs, whoever was left that didn't fit the model of the perfect Aryan race.
But after the US and its allies crushed Germany for its war-mongering, we then threatened enough war-mongering with Russia to keep them out of West Germany until today. You of all people should maybe appreciate the US for its war-mongering ways.
There is a time for war. Evil wins when good men do nothing against it. Hitler was evil. Milosivich was evil. Saddam was evil. Al Qaeda is evil. Ignoring evil does not make it go away.
The historical background of my home country tells me that war is the very last option. The current situation in Europe tells me that international trade and cooperation is the way to go, confrontation is not the solution, it is the cause of problems.
Never having had a "modern" war in your own country obviously makes war a less bad option for the US Americans. It is so easy for your to threaten a nation and they are so far away, you don't have to see what is going on there unless you are a soldier.
If you are so convinced of having a higher standard then why don't you adhere to it when dealing with other nations?
As for negotiations with Iran: It is the USA who are blocking talks with them. Obama was criticised for his position that he would talk with them.
Don't mistake me for a pacifist. I do think that military is a necessary (bad) thing, but it should be used like a police force. You don't blow up a house just because there may be one bad guy inside. Iran is not a case for a military action, Iraq was not. Afghanistan and Serbia were, but in Afghanistan the USA missed the point when to step down form military to police and humanitarian mode.
Bug, I need to disagree for sure on one point. The military does not make a good police force. The US military has historically been a hammer. It was made for smashing things. Not investigating, collecting evidence, building a case, and prosecuting bad guys. Once it determined a target, its job was to destroy that target, hopefully with minimal collataral damage. That's the main reason US forces in Iraq have stirred such resentment from the locals. Police action is best done by the locals, hence the ongoing training of Iraqi and Afghani police.
I disagree with your opinion that Bush is evil. Bad judgement maybe, stubborn and misinformed maybe, but not deliberately evil. Bush never ordered US troops to round up and execute civilians, as Hitler, Milosivich, and Saddam did. Those people supported genocide, Bush did not. I think that's a clear line to step over. Bush may be many things negative, but I don't think he's evil. Bush's orders did result in deaths, but no more so than allied bombing of Dresden or Tokyo. Were Churchill and Roosevelt evil too? Kennedy started US involvement in Vietnam, was he evil? What's your definition?
As for the US not experiencing a modern war on US soil, well what's your definition of a modern war? Because I would say 9/11 qualifies. As we threaten other terrorist sponsering nations, we are well aware they could strike back in another 9/11 kind of way. Wars are not without risk, and we are aware of that.
I'm not sure what you meant by our higher standard that we don't adhere to when dealing with other nations?
I disagree with you that Iraq and Iran are not cases for military action. Diplomacy was exhausted in Iraq. Sanctions were deteriorating, Saddam was still firmly in power, the UN was bribed. Saddam, who had already attacked three other nations, committed genocide against his own people, and continued to defy UN resolutions, was still in power. Force was the only option remaining.
Iran is quickly exhausting all diplomatic possibilities, and will soon develop nuclear weapons. To believe they won't is nieve. I agree the US has not directly talked to Iran, but when Iran talks to Europe and the UN, they know they are talking to the US. Dealing with Iran should be similar to dealing with North Korea, hold multi-party talks. Because this isn't just a beef between Iran and the US, this is a beef between the whole world and Iran.
Americans agree that war should be a last option, I think we only disagree on when diplomacy is exhausted, and military force the only remaining option. Consider this, without military force, Saddam would still be in power. Without the credible threat of military force, Iran will develop nukes. Neither of these makes the world a better place.
Bushes biggest blunder was not getting UN or Nato consensus to attack Iraq. With it, we wouldn't be having this arguement.
Now why can't you always have a reasonable conversation, instead of becoming a left-wing nutjob like Canuck?
Kennedy was killed in 1963, the Vietnam war was started by the USA in 1964 by staging an incident. Kennedy had started to pull troops out of Vietnam. At least get the simple facts straight.
But the deed of starting that war is a very dark spot on US history.
I don't want to demean the people who died and the families left behind in the horrific 9/11 events, but to compare this to a war in your homeland is... I am missing the right words.
All you are doing is still repeating the faked reasoning the Bush administration had produced for Iraq and is now trying to fabricate for Iran.
Well you're right that Kennedy was pulling us out of Vietnam prior to his death. By Johnson turned that right around, and he was a solid democrat. But what I said "Kennedy started US involvement in Vietnam" is absolutely true is it not? I didn't get any facts wrong. Don't go accusing me of getting my facts wrong, when I'm right.
My point is that this is the new definition of modern war. Hopefully no more nation against nation, with large armies destroying each other. But rather small disaffected terrorists attacking whoever they see as their oppressor. With that nation unable to retaliate in a meaningful and direct way.
Bush did not fake his reasoning to invade Iraq. Some 75% of Americans, democrats and republicans favored removing Saddam from power. The only thing "faked" as you say, was that he used intelligence about WMDs, which of course turned out to be faulty. But this intel was shared by Israel, by Germany, by France, by the entire world. And that was because Saddam wanted it that way. He wanted the world to believe he still had WMDs, because he was more afraid that Iran would invade his weakened nation, than he was seriously afraid of the US attacking. If you need to blame someone for the world's faulty intel on WMDs, blame Saddam.
Bush is not trying to attack Iran. If he truly wanted to, any number of stupid aggressive Iranian actions against US navy ships could have been provoked into an act of war. Get your facts straight.
What I mean with modern war is what was has been since WWI and even more so since WWII: A massive desaster that takes out whole countries and robs them of their infrastructure, housing, and major parts of the (civil) population.
Your civil war was nothing like that, Pearl Harbour was not and 9/11 was bad but also a limited catastrophe.
Interesting, the myth about the WMD intelligence still lives? Only the USA and UK had these results, though they were the ones who had no agents in Iraq at the time. Germany and France had agents on the scene and their result was that there were no WMDs, or no more than minimal stock that had not been located yet.
Actually the American civil war was very disastrous for infrastructure on both sides, it just wasn't that modern yet. In terms of Americans killed, civilians bombed, cities burned, etc. it was America's worst war. It was just so long ago, we forget, and we have no one else to blame. The hatred and memories are mostly gone now, I hardly ever think about bombing the south anymore...
I'm sure France and Germany may have tried to share their intel on Iraq if true, but Bush probably didn't believe it, thinking it politically motivated. And Israeli intel was probably politically motivated the other way. France was guilty as hell of accepting Iraqi bribes to lift the sanctions, I don't remember if Germany got caught up in this.
There were stories a couple years back, that Saddam flew all his bad weapons to Syria. Whether true or not, we may never know. Even if the Bush admin had solid proof of this, they might not share it, since it might lead to calls to invade Syria.
There were plenty of Iraqi Migs dug out of the desert, burying them appeared a better option then giving them to Iran, or getting them blown up. It took years to find those. That desert could hide just about anything.
There were also chemical weapon shells found, but they were few, old, and probably built before 91 and simply mis-placed by the Iraqi army.
So the practical WMD threat never panned out, but never forget what a sneaky bastard Saddam was. We may learn about Saddam's WMDs some day. Anyway, I'm not using this as defense for invading Iraq, I've given other reasons. I just know we haven't nearly heard the whole story.
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