Winpop, if you want to criticize Chummy, you'll need to use WAY smaller words. Think "hooked on phonics" for the socially retarded. Then dumb it down a little more. No, more than that. Think mud, or a bag of hammers, or a dozen GWB's. in a phone booth.
yeah, but it's not a bunch of dead fish mushed up as bait. And Gargamel was actually a great wizard, the smurf show was biased!
The smurfs where part of his cure for cancer... if you can't see that then the media has YOU by the balls. jeje
Leave out a small contraction out (oops!, my mistake) and all the flea-biting c**k-suckers rise up just like dragging a C-note through a trailer park. I told Chumm maybe that wasn;t a good name, Chummin, but I guess I was wrong. With you girls I could bait...wait, let's see...the baboon cage at the zoo...with mere words. Ha!
Or were you more offended at being called Democrats..or maybe useful idiots? But I repeat myself. Cheers girls
chum 2 noun chopped fish, fish fluids, and other material thrown overboard as angling bait. • refuse from fish, esp. that remaining after expressing oil. verb [ intrans. ] use chum as bait when fishing. ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: of unknown origin.
All you guys are missing the point here.
If you know semaphore, you'll see that the young Iraqia are spelling out the following message to their trainers.
"You macho American idiots jumping up and down with your stupid exercises - do you really think you can beat us - the next time you see us we will have explosives under our shirts - Allah is good."
Yet another Glumbert video which kinda shows what I've been saying all along.
Some time back, I asked another poster on these threads, who went by the name of "usmcvet" (I think), as to why it takes eight to ten weeks to put a Marine through basic infantry.....yet it's taking almost 5 YEARS to train the Iraqis to stand up for themselves? Or, for that matter, why/how thirteen raggedy colonies managed to get organized enough to break free of a world empire? Well, the answer to this is sooooooo simple: one can NOT instill freedom for a peoples, unless those peoples have the spirit of that ideal within THEMSELVES. Because if this was true in the Iraqis case, then I would have seen numerous IED's, mines, suicide attackers and snipers all throughout the tenure of Saddams reign. But there were none. And that's because of one of two reasons: they didn't mind him all that much.....or they simply didn't care one way or another. And please...don't give me any of this horseshit about them being "too afraid of dying", or being "killed"; George Washington and his crew took humongous casualties in their struggle, simply because the cause was just and right. But the assholes in this video can't even get organized to do jumping-jacks, fer fuck sakes.
Once more:
You can NOT give anyone something they are NOT ready to to obtain (i.e. fight for), for themselves.
And the sooner Stream and his right-wing, bloodthirsty, ignorant, kill-crazy, Bush-apologist fuckheads realize this, then the sooner young American kids can stop dying for a gutless, cowardly, opportunistic Iraqi populace.
That's really easy if you've ever worn a uniform of anything other than a rent-a-cop agency. A seriou question only for the seriously deficient in how the world works. You can train a kid to shoot, kill etc in no time. But you can't create command, control, or any sense of mission i less than 1-2 years, minumum. Look, it took Canada 153 years, and they're still working it.
Tweedle-Dumbest, you've finally begun to cost me research time. If that was your aim, you win. For while you try to get your masters in history cutting and pasting the first paragraph of just about everything Wikipedia and Google have to offer, I have to spend my time now searching through thesauri for new ways to define stupid, as cretin, moron, ignoramous just don't quite get it done anymore. Even Dante could not have contrived a pit in hell so deep as to be able to hold your pride in imbelicity. No libel ever accused you of even a scintila of brainpower. You and randal should form a history book club, as I saw where a nice lot of Junior Illustrated Classics were up for bid...just the starter kit you girls needs.
But as for Iraqi soldiers, there's not an American GI who's been in uniform over 2 years who couldn't dispatch your comments in under three sentences, expletives deleted. Every GI knows how long it takes to become a well oiled fighting unit...minimum three years....in a battle-free environment. (Our assault troops in WWII were all cannon fodder, not campaign winners.) Washington was a horrible example for you to use as he got his ass kicked out of New York and Philadelphia, in the first two years while he was trying to get his troops trained. His mission wasn't exactly the same as either ours or the Iraqis, but there were similarities. Washington had a holding-the-line victory at Trenton and a couple of modest defeats and ties in 1877. What he was trying to do was contain the Brits (your uncles) while other generals and troops (he hadn't trained) moved the Brits out of the Carolinas (Camden, Kings Mountain, etc) and the West (George Rogers Clark) and even the St Lawrence, (Champlain...Benedict Arnold was, after all, Washington's best general until he flipped). That done, they all squeezed, resulting in Yorktown, Fall, 1781....with the help of the French, who at least offered to shed blood on American soil for Americans..sort of.) Note the date. 1781. Once trained, Washington's troops fought no major egagements for over two years. They contained. They were a threat just by being there and they kept the Brits bottled up. Well oiled units only fight battles of their choosing, and if you'd quite reading 2005 blogs as if they were written last week, you'll note there hasn't been any serious negative comments about the battle readiness of Iraqi military units in over a year, maybe more. (Their police units suck, but don't confuse them, unless on purpose.) Point is, they are doing just fine in what their mission is, which is to contain gained territory. Seems to eb working as US units and Brits have left entire areas of Iraq to the new military. True, we train and they are trained differently that perhaps Canadian troops, who only bark when the UN holds out some Kibbles and Bits. You're only domestic strategy is hold off the Peruvian Navy if it heads north against Dartmouth and Halifax, (nice towns, by the way, i'd hate to see them speaking Spanish someday), just long enough that Toronto, Hamilton and Ottawa can all move west of the red River. I don't think you have a strategy on paper about the Kitaiskis moving east. You just don't understand real military planning or strategy. You set yourself out as being a wise old analyst when in fact all you have proved yourself to be is a bosun's mate on a ship of fools.
Canuck always great to hear your sanity in these times we live!:)
Now on to tarded matters!
HUZZAH...Chum
Your history lesson on actual fact is almost on point,Leaving me to believe you're not the same idiot who stated earlier the Emancipation Proclamation had nothing to do w/ the American civil war But as I read on my doubts returned, and that you in fact are the same dolt!?(crosses finger) Or that you just did a bit of reading like i suggested. Arnold was perhaps our best general? But alas, Loyalty counts for everything! so it is now Nathanael Greene who that right belongs. unarguable!
THREE YEARS minimum to become a well oiled fighting unit??? DUDE! where do you get your facts! Yes, Some units do train that long! But we refer to these as ..(now follow along)..S.P.E.C.I.A.L..forces!!! Is that what we're doing ? We're training the whole Iraqi army to be special forces!?
Try to remember this also. Who do you think we're training anyway? you think these guy have no combat experience! Most of the Iraqi have plenty of former training! and a lot of them have more combat experience then our own troops!
I know you pretend to abhor the idea of googling, but try to lower your self proclaimed standards, and do so, Iran Iraq war! shouldn't be to hard to find it, only lasted ten years or so!
Canuck is right about the spirit needed to fight for freedom, or the right just to exist! What it boils down to is no matter how much time we spend over there,or how many of my brothers and sisters die there, We are going to leave!!! And when we do, the result will be the same. A Civil war won by the Iranian backed unholy warriors! All made possible by the good people who brought us this war,The monkey president Himself, his minions and puppet masters!
I don't pretend to Know the hearts and minds of the Iraqi fighting (or otherwise) mind? But I do Know the only similarity betwixt MY country and the country of Iraq and the two wars, is people are getting killed and they're Americans! Thats the only similarity! Or did we All miss something here in the U.S ? Did a certain group of mullahs form some constitution and proclaim separation of church and state that we're unaware of here? perhaps they declared independence from Saddam and were well into their war of independence when we decided to bring our navy in w/ little loss of life on our part and help out?
Cause thats not reality, is it now? NO...it's not! They're no similarities between our war for independence and...well, our occupation of iraq!
If you feel so Gung-ho over spilling some blood why not drag your ass over there and quit hiding behind georges dress? Don't answer!we all know what it is.
One more thing !You accuse people of googling some facts on matters at hand! Who doesn't?, You do! LOL!
And if there is a ship of fools, I'm sorry to say but we all are sailing it, you people who post under the name Chummin as well!!!
Everytime I write Canuck directly he sends his little sister.
The fact that you didn't know that Arnold was probably our best field general (the invasion of Quebec, Champlain) tells me even more loads about you that I had already figured out. Glad you got all that stuff off your chest, only no one cares...at least among the strangers who might come on this site. I'm just here to remind them who knows what about what. They can decide on their own. That's how it works in a free country. It will not be the case when your guys get control. (That's the part you ain't figured out yet...you'll be the first one eaten. Again, read a little history..especially what happens to dupes. I'm here trying to save your life and all I get is grief. Damn!) As for strapping on the uniform, I already did my time, 5 years, in fact. An ossifer, to boot. (Wow! Double-damn.) A much loved officer, I might add. I won't even argue the idiocy of how long a division trains to become a working fighting force. Since small unit tactics is all they do on video games, i guess you think you have it all figured out. Sorry, pal. By the way, almost none of the Iraqis had prior fighting experience as the military was disbanded and most of then never re-signed. The vast majority were/are from the streets. Besides, we don't have any MOS's for rape and pillage in our army. You just stay under your bed and we'll keep defending your right to be stupid.
The only thing the US Army defends in Iraq is the right to get access to cheap oil.
Go do some reading about the history of the Iraq, this will help you understand why violent measures will never work there. The Brits should have known better, they already did a "short interdiction".
Chummin wields a frying pan, too.
We can certainly agree to disagree about the inateness of a yearning for Freedom. You think it is not inherent to humanity. Ok. I think that is ludicrous, Canuck. You ignore so much cultural context when gusting absurb. We are not instilling or imbuing the yearing for Freedom...only trying to release what has been suppressed. Or, do you disagree that a democratic Middle East is a good thing? (Your logic, if you call it that, is flawed: You did not see (read "nazi") IEDs, etc during Saddam's reign for similar reasons they were absent in Germany and the Soviet Union...poor people and suppression do not lend themselves to that type of retaliation. It has generally taken the help of others. (Gosh, I seem to remember that being a humanitarian argument.)
Now, you usually don't need my help sounding stupid and self-contradictory, but...(This is what you just wrote:
"Once more:
You can NOT give anyone something they are NOT ready to to obtain (i.e. fight for), for themselves."
Brilliant One: does that include welfare checks and free medicine?
Mr. The Bug: I suppose because others have failed, the US should not try.
Your right, as usual...violence won't work in Iraq...what they need is a stern talkin'-to. I propose we send Joan Baez, Bruce Springsteen and Robert Redford.
Since you seem to have avoided your own stupidity, Let us once again try and address your as almost always tarded comment!
THREE YEARS minimum to become a well oiled fighting unit??? DUDE! where do you get your facts! Yes, Some units do train that long! But we refer to these as ..(now follow along)..S.P.E.C.I.A.L..forces!!! Is that what we're doing ? We're training the whole Iraqi army to be special forces!?
Try to remember this also. Who do you think we're training anyway? you think these guy have no combat experience! Most of the Iraqi have plenty of former training! and a lot of them have more combat experience then our own troops!
I know you pretend to abhor the idea of googling, but try to lower your self proclaimed standards, and do so, Iran Iraq war! shouldn't be to hard to find it, only lasted ten years or so!
Streamlined, I just hope that the USA is not going to try the same stunt again with Iran. The middle east is sufficiently instable as it is now, another civil war would not be a good idea.
As for trying: What exactly do you think was the objective? Finding weapons of mass destruction? Spreading democracy and peace? Or getting access to cheap oil?
Neither did work very well so far, but a few large companies made a good deal.
It takes less then three years to train soldiers? ... So we enlist and train for couple of months and then sit around for 10-20 years and when war comes up were bad ass disciplined soldiers?
This isn’t the game Call to Duty. Training is constant and non stop. We have soldiers training before war, during war and after war. There is a reason when the American forces are the most trained and most elite forces in the world. And I am not talking about Special Forces.
Show me a force that trains less then three years. Point out some units please because I am confused.
And Basic training doesn’t spit out soldiers like your fantasy. It only prepares a new soldier to live a life and train as a soldier...
Those who are plunged into war their whole life doesn’t make them well oiled soldiers. Look at Somalia. They fought longer then any vet we have alive. They fought since they were younger then 12. But 12 US Rangers and 5 Delta force killed 1000 fighters...weird considering according to you that these Rangers only have 3 years of training and less experience then the enemy.
Anyone else just now understand why Canada’s armed forces still used dog sleds?
Where were you stationed? What branch of the service were you in?
Me,,Marine corps 13/12 weeks Parris Island then maybe 1 year in your specified M.O.S...or field! And thats it!!! Any thing else is special training!
And to insult Canada shows just what you really are and what you truly believe in!
Now you're saying we need to train the whole of iraq, for what!, another 8 YEARS !!??? Give it a break! I thank God every morning ,noon,night and in between that you and your people are now a smaller majority then what you used to be! Shows me that some people are waking up and turning away from their third world beliefs.
Please Don't Piss down our backs and tell us its raining!!
Psalm! if your motive for supporting and cheering the sending of my brothers and sisters to die or become maimed for life so you can feel better about whatever it is you need to feel better about yourself is?
Why not take chimmpum and go there yourself and quit murdering my countrymen !!
Bug...thanks.
Hasn't been a civil war yet. At least the folks there don't seem to think they're in one.
Remember, these things take time. Can't just download victory or microwave it. It takes patience, diligence and courage.
Better double check all that about no WMD's...not quite as simple as the Euro press and American press would have it.
All those reasons, to some extent, were motives for what we are doing there. If I ran goes down a certain path, Germany and France (mark my words here) will bo on board for military action.
Thanks, Psalms...keep it up. Some people just don't and really won't get it.
streamlined, we have been over your bad selection of information sources before.
Did you ever even try to understand anything outside your obviously very narrow horizon? You think that you do have answers for anything, but you don't even understand the questions.
Bug...you are hurting when Canuck agrees with you.
You have not been over my sources. I wish you would. You showed yourself to be pretty smart once before...don't trip over stupidity now.
Keep talking and denying. Not seeing the vacuousness in your position(S) keeps you in one small place.
Stream, I have been over such soruces before, I don't need to check more of the bullshit that is manufactured to justify the Iraq war. I also don't need to go over the same stuff that is now manufactured to discredit Iran.
I am well aware that you are one of the stupid US Americans who don't understand shit about anything that is happening outside Heckensack, Texas (fortunately not all your fellow citizens are that stupid).
Do you know anythign about the history of the middle east? Do you know any people from there? Do you have any idea about their culture?
Obviously you don't, you are even getting the facts about your own (short) history in the USA wrong.
Buggered...please educate me. If it is like any of your previous arguments, it will be as full of logical bumps as the phrenology you rely upon.
Glad to know I am one of the stupid Americans. Enjoy your security.
Tides they are a-turning.
Please correct me, kinder. Bitte. Tell me of my heritage that you know about.
Yeah, you are right, tides are turning, at least it seemed like that when I was in the USA this summer. People start to realize that Bush and his minions are criminals and that it is not unpatriotic to think and demand your rights. Maybe, just maybe, this wave of change will also reach the remote backwater part of the country you seem to live in.
Stream'o'BS you really are a piece of work. Reading your little cut and parries, with the occassional break to give A.R.S.E soul a reach-around is something to behold. It also makes one laugh...
Hey! At least we're keeping you online and not letting you out in the big wide (flat) world you live on. You can do little harm here. Your type have done lots already to the US though...
Buggery- You misunderstand to whom you condescend. Your pinky waving friends aren't part of the turning tide. I meant, and you know this, the turning of tides around the world. Enjoy being on the wrong side of history...again, Bug. (This will make your second go-round in the last 60 years.) Still waitng on my history lesson.
Hi Mako...A little ice would be good for the skillet wounds. Canuck is currently taking your lumps.
Not from where I'm standing he ain't Streamy... He's pretty much showing you the way, as is Bug.
That's why you fall back to referencing theoretical frying pans and hooting on about people using the internet to source information.
According to you every single article posted on the internet is skewed away from your world view as part of some conspiracy normally attributed to 'lefties'.
No conspiracy mate - you're just a little behind the times
Thanks, Mako
You still struggling with the whole reading thing? You'll notice that I criticize Canuck's ONLY use of the internet and THEN eviscerate many of the articles as to their content.
You have not posted accordingly.
Nor can you.
Once you, Canuck and Buggered get the whole "criticizing 'A' doesn't necessarily mean support for 'B' " idea, then you might make it.
Flagg,, it bothers me that possibly Canuck has dirty pictures of you, or something like that. It bothers me that you seem you to jump every time he snaps his fingers. But no matter. This will be my gift to you...
...in 1976 I read everything I could on the American Revolution, as a matter of civic pride. It was not my favorite period. (The Civil War was....and I had a major in History.) There was a guy named Dale Van Every who wrote a trilogy : Forth to the Wilderness, Company of Heroes and Ark of Empire...he had written some novels so could tell a tale, keep it straight (w/footnotes...they didn't have Google then, c1960) and still make it interesting. He was one of the last of "classical historians" in American academe who didn't have a political ax to grind with their books. (You'll find books prior to 1968 are more merited on that account than those afterwards...on any subject.) About Arnold, this is way before your time, but there was a Pulitzer prize Winner named Kenneth Roberts who wrote a famous novel of Rogers Rangers (French and Indian War)) taking history and inserting fictional characters into the story of the campaigns. It was called Northwest Passage. (Great film, Spencer Tracy, 1940, and when i saw it I read everything I could on the original Rangers.) I suggest you read it, because it was considered one of the best works of fiction that stayed true to history. Roberts, however, was a Tory, living in NE somewhere and he wrote a series on novels on Arnold, the first called Arundel about the Quebec campaign..all of which is true as I double checked it about 25 years ago. he even published a non-fiction book on his background papers (March to Quebec), much of which no one had ever seen in the US. I always liked guys who didn't buy into the myths ...without first proving them. Roberts taught me a lot. Anything that's important check it out yourself...something you girls need to do if you want credibility here. (Google won;t do...just trips to the library.) I accept anybody's opinions as opinion, and politely, but I accept NO ONE's opinions stated AS FACT. Gain humility about all you don;t know and you are treated accordingly. In any case, Roberts taught me a lot, and he did a follow up to Arundel called Rabble in Arms about the Champlain campaigns. Again, my research shows that Roberts was correct about Arnold's role, Roberts hated the Continental Congress, which went against American myth in the 1940s-50s. He was probably right, but his bottom line, which may or may not have been true--he claimed to have a letter from Arnold after he moved to England, was that he believed America should be free and democratic, but with that bunch of mountebanks in Philadelphia running things, it wasn't time. (I feel the same way about Pelosi, Reid and Hollywood running the Congress...so I understood his anger about poiticians, although I don't agree with his bottom line). But I'm a good enough historian and was trained to be critical back in atime when that was "in". Now it's "out" as we all know with global warming, or Gayness being a choice.
I don't know how quickly you read, or ingest good, interesting material that's over 2 pgs long and doesn't have pictures, but those books should still in the library (free) or on Amazon for under a buck (I checked). Kick back, read them, empathize. Read them and enjoy. Then get back to me in 3-4 months. i'll be here. Cheers
...then quit pissing on the shoulders you're lounging on.
Since you seem to have avoided your own stupidity, Let us once again try and address your as almost always tarded comment!
THREE YEARS minimum to become a well oiled fighting unit??? DUDE! where do you get your facts! Yes, Some units do train that long! But we refer to these as ..(now follow along)..S.P.E.C.I.A.L..forces!!! Is that what we're doing ? We're training the whole Iraqi army to be special forces!?
Try to remember this also. Who do you think we're training anyway? you think these guy have no combat experience! Most of the Iraqi have plenty of former training! and a lot of them have more combat experience then our own troops!
I know you pretend to abhor the idea of googling, but try to lower your self proclaimed standards, and do so, Iran Iraq war! shouldn't be to hard to find it, only lasted ten years or so!
(dropped a paragraph) Suit yourself. We fight wars with divisions, brigades, regular TOE units. You seem to think wars are fought like Halo. Pick out any film clip from WWII, soldiers fighting building to building, against snipers. Urban warfare. Each of those soldiers belonged to squad, having been sent there by a lieutenant platoon leader. He got his orders from a company commander, and he from a battalion commander...all the way up. All of them were part of a single coordinated unit...even as they had to make it up as they moved forward(which only Americans can do by the way). Special Forces don't do that, but then again, special forces don't win wars. Dumb Ass.
Like I said, any 2 year troop could/would tell you you're full of shit, but beside that, your Big Sister Symp was inferring that we couldn't train the Iraqis as fast as Washington did. (only Washington didn't. He won the war by not engaging the Brits in open battle.) We're ahead of Washington's schedule in Iraq. It could be that your generation just wants wars to be like your movies...to be over in 90 minutes...just like Halo. I doubt you're in for much of anything for the long haul...all the more to pity about you. Still, what does Sister Symp have on you? It must be biggggg!
Humility! Great word coming from you or your boyfriend!
You really don't have a pair do you? I post under a name of a fictional caricature from a book! I also post on my own not w/ several other people! Seems you need more help then I first suspected!
If you Knew anything about My country and its history... more to the point American civil war,you would never had made the comment about the Emancipation Proclamation having nothing to do w/ the American civil war!
That just Shows you to be a lier!
But i expected nothing more from a few nut jobs from another country who support the jerk in the white house! Oh you can close your American history for dummy's book now, the truth is out!
Plus good come back on the whole on the whole training of soldier thing by the way! your analogy was about as far off...Well, as should be expected I suppose!
My suggestion remains if you are so gung-ho on fighting in Iraq then please go and fight!
Ps the whole Northwest passage thing, I was born on the mohawk River in a little down trodden and economically depressed town known as amsterdam N.Y! I'm also spending yet another thanksgiving in a town called Schuylerville right outside Saratoga! If you read a little further in that book you have propped open in front you, you may find out why those name and or towns mean something! So welcome to my neck of the woods! LOLOLOL!
While you are trying to catch up on my country and its history! I have been all over this land I live in! and the last 40 years immersed in its people and history!! unlike your cramming 40 minutes to reply to any comment to I may see fit to respond to.
Nice try tho! really, A masters in American history LOL! Tell me, who buys the Bullshit you peddle? Anyone ?
RF...You and Chummin seem to have a history about the civil war. What thread and what context?
What are you suggesting about the Civil War vis a vis the Emancipation Proclamation? Surely you are not suggesting that it started the War of Northern Aggression?!
Heres what I dragged over! and I jumped in this debate when Canuck stated that Mr. Lincoln's Emancipation proclamation turned the tide in the war, I disagreed w/Canuck! I strongly do not believe it was that act that was to turn the war around for the federal army And it wasn't the "key" factor in starting the war either!
For you see,, I can still disagree w/ the people's who's opinions i respect without it turning into some bullshit pissing match!
(chummin 1 month ago The Emancipation proclamation had nothing to do with the war as it only freed slaves in Kentucky and Maryland, maybe Missouri, I can't remember. There;s all kinds of books out there. Read one. I'll even send you one of you'll send me a name/address.)
Say what you will stream!, but that comment is the biggest contradiction as of yet! a bit oxymoronic if you will!
RF-
Thanks. With what I know of the War of Northern Aggression, I cannot disagree with Chummin there. What, specifically, is wrong with what he said? How is it contradictory? What were you two arguing?
Twice you used the term war of northern aggression. No? At the end there if you notice! For its not a question!
I,m not biting. It just occurred to me that your from the south! LOL, If you had stated this earlier then i must not have seen it! Or it slipped my mind.
Do you know if any of your ancestors fought in the Rebellion?
I'll tell you something though! The Rebellious states had a point when it came to states rights! I think they were right about the federal government being to strong!
If only they could have just let their slaves free... But then we no that wasn't in the cards.
The war was lost from the beginning for the south, most didn't expect to win! Only to make it bloody enough to let the Union release them!
Who knows, if Kansas weren't brought in as a free state then I would be having this exchange w/ your house servant(fill name in here!).......... ?
Thank god For Crazy old John Brown and Bloody Kansas huh!?
Oh I was born on the Mohawk, But grew up 1/4mile over from the burial grounds of Brown,sons and friends.
You're really losing sleep over that, aren't you? Good. Read a book, as I keep recommending. More than one. You seem to have an inquiring mind...only you don't know nothing, as old Hodge used to say. All you're doing is throwing a good old fashioned Scarlett O'Hara foot-stomping teat fit because you can't have your way in this issue. Let it go, move on, Dot Org. Is your whole generation this way? Be a man....instead of a mere male.
Again I have no idea who're you're arguing with. Surely not me.
Yes I do!! I know exactly who I'm schooling! Your a misinformed adolescent , No Friends, No fun, no understanding of what happened in American history or what's happening in the world around him now for that matter!
Kid, you can make up all sorts of shit in your head then put it down on these threads!, but its never going any any of the filth that you spew from your brain true!
RF- Thanks for some clarity. BTW--did you all kill that awful gator...there at Lake Placid?
There are a lot...and I mean A LOT...of misconceptions about the War of Nawthen Aggression (WoNA).
1) That it was about slavery. It largely was not. Slavery was dying its own economic death in the South and the Southern business-types knew this but sure as heck weren't going to have a Fed gubment tell them what to do...which was unConstitutional. Further, no nawtherner took up arms to fight for the noble cause of freeing the slaves. The racism of the north took a more subtle form. (BTW-the Abolitionist movement was a Christian movement that influenced public policy--in case mako or canuck is reading.)
2) That State's rights = a desire to keep and maintain slavery. Nope. No dirt poor southerner (who didn't own slaves) took up arms to keep slaves. The Southern anger for the Fed Gubment is warrented since it had no authority to act in the manner it did, altough it clearly had te power. Secession was an option to all States and, at the time, was not seen as something over-the-top.
3) Lincoln could not have cared less about slavery except in its capacity to break up the Union (He had some strong positons about the South's ability to trade with Europe, independent of the North). The EmanProclam did not apply to all slaves...only the ones living in the Confederacy. The slaves that Lincoln did control (800,000 of them) living within captured Confed territory and in Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri and parts of Tennessee were left out of the EmanProclam. (Lincoln knew he had NO constitutional right or legal justification.)
Those are my favorite (3), but there are more...and our Fed Gubment is too big.
John Brown--Some rich Northerners funded and armed John Brown...who was purposefully trying to start a race war. So, just 25 or so years after Nat Turner's revolt, the Northern Press was calling for immediate abolition and John Brown lead a certain type of revolt...these cultural and social acknowledgements must be considered.
Very Well, please! You really wouldn't be giving away any information that could damage your (already soiled,LOL!) reputation by letting me know where you call home!? I know Chumpchimp has attacked the state of New Jersey Knowing that I live here, those being the methods of a child with nothing better to say,! and lacking in imagination! But what he or they fail to realize is that My home is the whole of the United States of America! you see when I joined and served , it was not only for the state I lived, but for the country I loved and love!!!
O.k, 1-War of rebellion (WoR). For we need to address the title for what it really was! and that was a rebellion! We were, and are a country, A country with laws! state and federal. And to Try and do what The CSA did is really nothing less then treason!
Now if any one on this site knows about following or obeying a president I would think its you? Aren't You the one telling me that although you don't agree , or your not a big fan of this loser in the white house he's still the president and until he is removed by impeachment or voted out he's to lead this country otherwise?
Well then, your not giving the same leeway of loyalty for Mr. Lincoln! In thought! Or am I wrong on this and you are in agreement that the act the southern states to attempt to succeed (By a force of arms no less) Was unlawful and treasonous? Try it now, and in retrospect. We're not happy with the way things are going in the capital. And if that man is elected to be president then we are not only not going to not listen to him,we our going to form our own government!
Pretty crazy huh? 2-Mr.Lincolns did care about the slaves,And thought as most people do that it was a barbaric practice and should be Abolished! Tho if it ment keeping the Union together without having this war, he would not have acted on the slavery issue in his time in office! Perhaps never freeing a single slave!
But to Say the Emancipation Proclamation had(NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WAR) Is ludicrous!! And tells me someone is so desperate for argument he will say just about anything!
There are many reasons this act had a lot to do w/ the war , and I will just give you this. When this act went into effect it was pretty much a done deal keeping the British from entering on the side of the south!
Mr.Lincolns duty as president first and foremost was to preserve the Union. And he did! at the cost of his life and nearly 659.000 soldiers, and a few hundred thousand other lives as well. Ole Jefferson Davis seemed to come out unscathed tho! evading capture at the cost of dressing like a women! (fact)! Now I also read that Allen Pinkerton had Mr. Lincoln dress in the same fashion when it was rumored an Assassin was on the prowl somewhere near Baltimore.tho this was never proved it is out there?So what's good for the goose is good for the gander I suppose!
3- John Brown .. funny enough was more like a creationist then not! Tho he tried his hand at many trades, He would usually fail! Before he moved some of his family to Kansas and before Pottawatomie these supporters of brown (really only two) Severed ties always knowing Brown to capable of extreme violence!
Also yes ! as far as the dirt poor farmer w/ no vested interest in slavery not owning slaves and whatnot, I agree w/ you. But, Many were just young and bored and joined only on that basis! Tho once they like anyone else, got a taste of this fight many of those boys said just that! F...k this ! Its a rich mans war and I want no more of it!
In my travels I have had the great pleasure of visiting such places like Franklin Tenn, Getteyburg Pa, Vicksburg Miss, Antietam/Sharpsburg md, New Orleans La, Boonsboro md, Nashville tenn, Chattanooga Tnn, Chickamauga Atlanta,Fredericksburg Va,Manassas Second bull run Va, murfreesboro Ten, Petersburg va, Glorieta pass NM!
And some I may not have mentioned. This may look to be a bit of a bolstering on my part here but hell, I mean this is the topic and I'm trying to make someone aware that making comment like the one I corrected above will not fly! Peace!
tanks, Ranny
I will try and be brief:
1) No, it was an act (or series of acts) of aggression by a President WITHOUT the Constitutional authority to take certain steps. That is inarguable. Secession was a viable option at the time and a number of states had considered it a couple of times in the previous 70-80 years.
(To get a full context of what the States thought o themselves to be, please read the Constitutional Congress of Philadelphia. Read the letters going back and forth between Adams (the father) and Jefferson. Hamilton. Anti-Federalists vs. Federalists. Madison! The USA as we see it today was NOT what they thought then, Randall.)
Secession was not considered treasonous, RF. That is because they saw themselves as a "confederacy". the 10th Amendment seems to say as much. Autonomy was seemingly ok. Lincoln fought to keep a union, in part, because of the belief that a separate and economically independent South was disaster for the North...especially when it came to trade with Europe. (Of course, there were other reasons.)
But, the idea that it was treasonous for States to secede is patently silly.
2) No he did not. You have some contextual reading to do, RF.
No, Mr. Lincoln's first duty was not preserving the union. You can find his duties in the constitution and there is no such preservation clause in there. This is part of the problem...conveniently reading into the Presidency what you would want in there. Same thing going on with those who claim our war in Iraq is llegal. It is in the Constitution and in pretty clear English...THE QUEEN'S ENGLISH, for that matter.
3) Cool.
Young and bored...doubtful. You should read about the recruiting practices in NYC and Ellis Island. (I'm pretty sure they lead to some riots.) Your blanket assertions about "rich man's war" did not really apply to Southerners. Still doesn't.
Thank you for serving, by the way.
A fun book(s) as a solid summary: "Politically Incorrect Guide to the South" and "Politically Incorrect Guide to American History". These are solid and well cited.
Another nutty, religious zealot calling themselves "psalm2516" coming outta the woodwork, and deciding to slander an historical ally, whilst sucking on Saudi Arabia's cock (you know: the fine folks who brought you 9/11, plus other assorted terrorist acts over the last 40 years and killed thousands of Americans). But you still wanna sit there and take potshots at your old neighbour/ally? Fine. Go right ahead. When dumb fucks like yourself reach that point and got nothing except to hurl insults at other nations, it tells me your on the ropes, and got nothin' else. Plus, it seems to me that Canada used its "dog sleds" effectively enough to boot out its own foreign invader a spell back.....care to guess who that was? Yeah....thought so.
It's at least gratifying to see that the U.S. has enough of its own retards, much as we do up here. The biggest difference, of course, is that the U.S. had the misfortune of putting ITS retards in positions of power.
So Stream.....when are you and your buddies gonna go die for Fallujah? And Allah? And when are y'all gonna write to your Republican Congressmen, and ask them to take out the other 35-40 dictators currently operating on the planet? Or ain't those causes "humanitarian" enough for ya? And when is Dick Fuckhead Cheney gonna finally do the world a favour, and take a dirt nap?
well said america was hijacked by an unholy alliance of religious nuts, egomaniacs, elitist neocons and war mongering private enterprise.....i think it's gone for good to quote someone...."i love my country but fear my government"
"Christians leaving Basra despite decades of co-existence
Basra - Voices of Iraq
Sunday , 18 /11 /2007 Time 5:01:37
Basra, Nov 18, (VOI)- "From the tens of thousands of Christian families that used to live in Basra before 2003, only about five hundred remain in the southern city with their eyes on assistance coming from relatives living abroad," Sami Basheer, a Christian from Basra said.
Basra, a predominantly Shiite city in southern Iraq, once a secular city that dealt with people of all religious affiliation with tolerance, has since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March 2003 become a conservative society with Muslim extremists."
(I just love this; and I also LOVE how you and your pals think I use Google and the like; the answer of course, is : Ahhh....no. But keep on guessing. Maybe you'll just come see that I'm just a lot smarter than you....that's all.)
"For the United States, the safest bet would be shipping the material to someplace like New Mexico, but even pro-American Pakistanis would be unlikely to cooperate."
Psalm!... whf are you talking about !?? Now your just being stupid! Are you doing it on purpose!?
The topic was,, (Try to follow) Training the Iraqi ! Its not about our training or our combat readiness! you need to start reading the topic of the conversation before committing yourself the moron! Yea Think?
Where were you stationed? What branch of the service were you in?
Me,,Marine corps 13/12 weeks Parris Island then maybe 1 year in your specified M.O.S...or field! And thats it!!! Any thing else is special training!
And to insult Canada shows just what you really are and what you truly believe in!
Now you're saying we need to train the whole of iraq, for what!, another 8 YEARS !!??? Give it a break! I thank God every morning ,noon,night and in between that you and your people are now a smaller majority then what you used to be! Shows me that some people are waking up and turning away from their third world beliefs.
Please Don't Piss down our backs and tell us its raining!!
Psalm! if your motive for supporting and cheering the sending of my brothers and sisters to die or become maimed for life so you can feel better about whatever it is you need to feel better about yourself is?
Why not take chimmpum and go there yourself ? Like I said if you're so Fraking Gung-ho about killing get your asses over there! And quit supporting the murder my countrymen !!
RF- it comes to this: What would you be willing to die/get maimed/ kill for?
Many of the ones you are currently NOT supporting seem to disagree with you...as if they are not volunteers.
They all chose this, RF. Outside of enlisting to fight, standing armies don't know what or when the fit will hit the shan and therefore, cannot pcik the wars they support.
Stream, what I would fight for? Die for?Willing to be maimed for? Back when I enlisted, I was 17. Then i would have fought anyone at the drop of a hat!
And what's really strange is it was during the Iran hostage crises. We were a bunch of young and Violent kids looking for an outlet for all are pent up hostility.Then BAM!! Iran.
I didn't know how fortunate I was at the time that Jimmy Carter was the commander in chief. And a botched rescue mission was all that was attempted and not an all out war!
For you see it should be decided by the people, people like us When we should or shouldn't go to war!
Of course those kids signed up. Volunteered! But thats not my argument! Its funny that you brought up..(NWoA) cause thats what know this sham to be! Its nothing more then Gwb doing the bidding of the money men!
My argument Is just that! Those boys and Girls fighting for they're country is nothing more then duty! When the war is a just one! (And only a few have been). This war is not one of of them! In a few years these kids are going to have some real issues about why they were there and so on. Like I said before.When we leave, And we will, its going to go...like water finding its own level.
I am very sorry for your lack of understanding about the roles of the branches of the government, RF. The people do not, never have and shouldn't be making decisions about with whom and under what circumstances we go to war. It is certainly not in American tradition or its Constitution.
Stream - The laws as written and the actions taken may be different. With a volunteer military, the people do make the decision on a personal basis, and even with a draft if nobody showed up there would be no war between men.
Stream, I see Sister Symp still can't decide whether she doesn't believe in God, or just hates him. For a guy who hates Christians he sure does go to some length to say how they (we) ought to behave. Hell, if Christians were what he thinks they are, I wouldn't like them either. Then again, i smart people were what he thinks they are, we'd still be sucking bone marrow in cave. And if brave people were what he thinks they are, we'd all be singing Deutschland Uber Alles. The one-word definition for a pacifist who says "fuck" all the time is "coward". Can't wait til Peru attacks. Oh, speaking of Christians and Canada did I tell you about the time I was camping in the North Woods on the Upper Peninsula? I got up to take a leak about four, and there was this black bear messing about in our gear by the canoe. My wife and kid were still asleep so i need to run that sucker off so i got between him and the tent and tried to shoo him. Assuming he was as docile as a Smoky Mountain black, I picked up a stick and marched over and swatted him across the nose. The sumbitch stood up and growled at me. then swatted. Now I was scared. He tried to get me with his paw and I would push and shove and we battled like that all the way to the river, and both of us tumbled in. It was only about 4 feet, go i grabbed him around the neck, and we went under, once, twice, then three times....then all of sudden he stood up and limped away.
You know, the hardest job i ever done was baptizing that bear.
No, it's true. See, a few years later I was mushing dogs up in Algonquin in Ontario, and the Dutchman who ran the dogs told me he heard about a bear up near Churchill holding Wednesday night prayer meetings with other denizens of the forest. 'Course that was kinda hard for me to swallow. But it was an interesting coincidence.
"Oh, Lord, you delivered Daniel from the lion's den, You delivered Jonah from the belly of the whale, Amen! The Hebrew Children from the fiery furnace, oh The Good Book do declare. Well oh, Lord, Lord, if you can't help me For goodness sake don;t you help that bear."
BigotCanuck...you are an embarrassment to peeple who can read. (Not necessarily to those who think, as you don't register there.) Normally, I just let your stupidity exfoliate from the screen like so much exema, but I thought I would read a couple of your Google 101 seminar pages; to wit:
1) Desertion article...you cited it as if you had a point. Brainless: last year, roughly 7 out of a 1000 deserted. This year: 9. No context...no understanding. I know you want us to lose over there, but please, when citing bad news, don't take such glee, coward.
2) How do you know I would not have been in that majority? By 2009? Right now, the way things are trending, it just might happen. Other polls show that, if it is phrased as "surrender" vs. "withdrawal" then those numbers plummet. You really ought to read what ou cite. You, Capt. Craven, are in the minority.
3) I knew it was just a matter of time before you celebrated what Mahmoud was saying. HEY CHUMMIN--I might hve to agree with you on the terror-symp thing. Definitely a back-giving coward.
4) Basra- you have a point? Hey, since what you read on the web is absolutely true (and, clearly it is, because you haven't belched one critical thought in months) what have you found out about the successes in the MiddleEast? I know that no war is perfectly fought or perfectly won, but do you have the courage that you bloviate to see what is going well...what is succeeding?
5) Wait, C...you want to believe Powell now based on his opinion, but not in 2002 when he was citing WMDs in Iraq? Your standards are awfully convenient. Not real smart...just convenient. Heck, he cited his sources in 2002, but not in this article. It all comes back to basic thinking.
6) And now, the piece de resistance: "My pals" want to strike Pakistan? An op-ed piece! One guy a brazen lefty! Canuck...you may want to go back into hiding or simply stick to phallic humor because, dude, you ain't lookin too good.
Canuck, there is no one on your side with the courage to drag out "my bunch" and straighten them out. Just stay at home, Google your daily bread and when reality ever reaches your doorstep, it is because someone here took your advice.
I already asked him that, chuck. He actually gave an honest answer, and said "zilch".
Stream....the difference between what Powell was saying when he was IN the Administration, and what he's saying NOW, in that he's OUT of the Administration, is that he's the ONLY ONE who's fessed up (more or less), and said it was all bullshit, and that HE was fed bullshit. Everyone else CONTINUES to bullshit, or has been fired, or has been otherwise muzzled by King George. And Stream...do you REALLY think that ANYONE in this nutty, fucked-up Administration has ANY idea of what's on in the entire Middle East, because of the shit they've created? Ya think so? Well, YOU tell me:
WE are making an effort to deal with (and take in) average Iraqis who want to flee the festering SHIT that Bush caused.......and yet, the current U.S. Administration has done virtually NOTHING to help these people, in terms if emmigrating to the U.S. to escape that horror.
Know what, Stream? Maybe it truly IS a good thing I don't hold politcial office, y'know? I just wouldn't be cut out for it. Know why? Because the FIRST time I encounter shit like this, or the very first moment I hear the shit that comes out the mouths of you and your nutty, book-burning blowhards.....I'd say, "OKay fine. Clearly you can make do without us and have enough resources to clean up your OWN mess and don't much need us. So buh-bye. Have a nice day. And by the way, since you value your Arab buddies oil so damn much, we'll slowly shutting off our own taps, and nationalizing our resources. See ya."
Soooooo......consider yourself VERY lucky.
(Although if truth be told, I'd probably cave in on that last one, simply because it'd bug me that ordinary, decent Americans who'd never done us any harm or wished us any ill-will, would be negatively impacted. Unless I could find a way to confine it to the deep, deep South......ahhh, never mind.)
Oh, Stream, don't waste time on old arguments. What Canuck's doing here is trying to regurgitate old arguments...he only has 2-3...all of which have been put to bed a long time ago by you. As I said, he's just a sweet, mild pacifist who says fuck a lot. he's older, not like Flag or Fishman100 (do I smell a Fishman200 here?) who throws a tit fit when he can't make everyone bow to his point. (It heps, if pointing an accusing finger, you aren't holding your dick in your ear with the other. people tend not to take that kind of person seriously.) Sister Symp is different. She want to think she'll finally run into someone out there who's just watching, who buy into his bag of shit and think he's cool. He has real serious self-confidence issues. Not to mention paranoia. In any case, it's his type to re-run old arguments ad inifinitum, as if there were brand new ears and eyes out ther on a new slate. That's sort of what i like about him...like old Fritz Mondale, coming out of hiding every few weeks just for one more good old ass kicking.
Stream, when Powell "presented" the "evidence" to the UN in 2002 it was so obviously fake that he lost all my respect and that of most Europeans. For some wiered reason many people in the USA still think it was evidence.
But you did prove before how much you embrace strawmen, no matter how laughable they are.
You've been misinformed, Microbe. The Euros provided much of the intel for Powell's declarations, along with CIA and State. Since what you (we) know now and what you 9we) will know in say 2o years will most likely change. It will be easier for me to re-evaluate what I think now for I have never locked myself in when knowledge in the area is admittedly superficial. You on the other hand will live or die by your words since your vanity will never let you openly say "oops", and re-evaluate. That's why we call you guys useful idiots. When you do finally wake up and see the facts, usually around 30, you can't admit it. In the end, your puppet-masters have bought your silence.Some of the best and brighest from England in the 30s-40s were silenced that way, the same for America's brightes in the 60s....all because of an obsessive vanity and self-love. Bingo
you terror symps just need to listen to me when i tell you you can stop with all the struggling. one way or another im gonna put your huge dicks in my ever so huge anus! thats what all terror symps are gonna get! you better watch out! i am chummlnn hear me roar!
You did not really see the presentation Powell did? The stuff he presented looked like Homer Simpson trying to fake stuff, it was totally laughable, fuzzy pictures of some building structure and the comment that this shows structures they believe to be large tanks probably full of nerve gas, or maybe components for it, or maybe not.
A.R.S.E soul and Stream'o'bullshit unfortunately for you both, TheBug is completely right in his assessment of the Powell speech.
You both know this hence you begin to hurl insults. Time honoured tactics for you both I see
Whilst Powell did a good job of trying to appear convincing (his ass was on the line remember), the substance of what he presented was so obviously false, and has been proven as such in subsequent years, that watching you try and justify this invasion based on that intel is rather like watching the ice sheets melt faster than at any time in recorded history. Horrifying.
Think there was also a famous 'Dossier' of intel which Tony Blair had at his disposal. This included work directly lifted from academic journals several years old.
Up to the minute intel there... I guess there's something in the bible that tells you this intel was correct right?
THE WAR IS ILLEGAL
THE WAR WAS STARTED UNDER FALSE PRETENCES
THE WAR IS ESSENTIALLY ABOUT SECURING STRATEGIC OIL RESERVES
Deal with it. No need to keep fighting these facts. Simply suck it up and go forward.
Flagg, That's why you're who you are, and I'm who I am. I amaze a lot of people. Sorry, it's one of the sadnesses of your generation, but you don't amaze me. I've shown you the way out. Use the ladder, or stay withe shovel. Best of luck
Canuck...follow that story closely. It seems to have exploded all over the airwaves because it exposed so much...news...wait, what was it about again?
Google it again, C. Maybe there's a stroy there.
Mako...have you found anyone who will prosecute? Anyone who has the same reading of the Constitution as you?
I know someone...a champion of the people. A true originalist. A man among men...
Look, on the horizon, being beamed in via UFO...Dennis Kucinich! He'll prosecute!
"Stand back, vile capitalists! I will thwart the evil cabal that is the GWB Administration. On Murtha, On Leahy, On Pelosi and Clinton. HIYA!"
I see.
God Bless him and his family for the ultimate sacrifice.
According to you, he is the badguy, right? You are a callous, cold-hearted white feathered lilly to post a story like that to celebrate bad news in order to bolster your cowardly position.
When faced with a moral problem, always do what Canuck does:
Didn't like being made to look like a goddamn stupid fool who's cracking jokes about your dumb fuck of a President, while young men like this lose their lives, did you?
It's tough to be the flag-waving, bloodhungry zealot, when an actual face is STARING at you, as you make feeble jokes.....isn't it?
Trust me, sport....I'll be more than happy to rub your Saudi ass-kissing face into each and every time.
(Nice feeble try at trying to twist my words, though; VERY feeble)
(your quote) "Stand back, vile capitalists! I will thwart the evil cabal that is the GWB Administration. On Murtha, On Leahy, On Pelosi and Clinton. HIYA!"
You post a potshot at some decent people who are critical of this OCCUPATION, and its rational....while at the same time portraying G. DUBYA Fuckhead as a victim. You make stupid jokes like this....yet you cry foul when you have to look at the face of an innocent young kid, who died because....well....I don't know why. Only that he was sent there, on the orders of a complete imbecile.
So, the point was not to use this tragic story to futher any arguemnt I (or anyone else) might have...rather, to prove the point that you're so quick to throw 30,000 more kids like this into a "surge" and joke about the guy who sent them there....than to have to actually look into the kids face. Puts a different spin on it...don't it, tough guy?
Besides, why the outrage? Your Saudi/Pakistani/Egyptian buddies have been ruthlessly killing young men like this lad for years and years now.
You defend THEM by saying nothing in the way of condemning their actions, but suddenly you lament this kid.
A little late (not to mention hypocritical) don't you think?
Those who pledge their life to protect their country do have the fucking RIGHT that their government will send them into a fight only if there is absolutely no other option. The GWB government is definitely guilty of having started a totally unnecessary war which cost many lifes.
Ummmm...noooooo.....I was comparing this article and its tragic topic, with YOUR little "joke" that portrayed the fuckin' idiot who sent him there in the first place as the sympathetic character, or victim, in your little "joke" (this is kinda confirmed in the way you describe the other characters in your "joke" as "traitors" and "liars"....although I would hasten to add that THEY sound more like loyal, American patriots than YOU do in a lifetime).
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