Not quite, the USA never had laws forbiding women from voting, voting laws were passed by the states. Several states allowed women to vote, like Pennslyvania.
regardless of how you feel personally on the issue of abortion, read below and notice the distinct differences in crudeness and personal attacks between the PRO and ANTI people......I must say that one group needs to brush up on their manners......
Sorry nex233, I'm using this to get closer to shoeless' comment. Stupid people deserve to have their stupidity exposed. These people are just re frikken tarded. Maybe it's just because I've gotten my ex pregnant before, and if it weren't for abortions, I would have had to put my child into adoption by now. But being a man, I can't really say what is right or wrong, because ITS NOT MY BODY! If you think something is wrong, DONT DO IT. If you have a problem with something someone else is doing, talk to them about it and voice your opinion. Don't preach to the whole world about why certain things should never happen. I can think of a million things I'd rather not see anyone do. EVER. One example is staying with a girl or having a baby with her because you are afraid of losing her. And if I have a friend who is in that situation, I will voice my opinion to them. These people are just crying out to people they have no connection with, and expecting them to listen because they've gotten many people together to help them. In my opinion, protesting something that is such a personal choice as this is stupid. You might as well protest to make suicide illegal (I realize there are a few things wrong with that statement but you can understand the point I'm making). Or maybe people should be protesting to make tattoos illegal. And after that, let's protest and tell people not to piece their ears. And after that, why not protest plastic surgery. Ooo. And how about driving cars. There's a great one. Let's make it illegal to drive cars, cause that hurts a lot of families.
i've seen lots of glumbert videos and read a ton of mindless chatter, but this is my first post. this guy brings up a very valid question that these people should have been thinking about for a very long time. i have been in Christian ministry for years, and have never heard this conversation before. the simple reason is this: when the Christian community sees what they believe as a violation of God's law, and the society in which they live does not uphold God's law in that instance, they must speak out against that particular activity. calling something wrong does not mean dictating to the rest of society what the punishment for that wrong should be. i said the guy has a valid question, but what i resent is the implication that since these well-meaning, but befuddled people can't come up with an answer, that abortion should suddenly be left alone.
Anyone can make a video like this and only show the responses from morons. I'm sure the majority of people he interviewed had opinions different than those shown.
Like other opinions expressed....what we do not see are those who may indeed have an idea as to some sort of legal penalty. These people are aiming at stopping abortion (it is, after all, the violent ending of a life - maybe even more weighty than shooting a deer, don't you think) - they are not focused on what punishment should be rendered. That would, after all, be a legal issue determined after their first goal is attained...and not by them.
Having follower be "befuddled" makes religion easier to swallow. Easy to have followers work without contemplation and just take what they are told without thinking.
This was actually the subject of newsweek op-ed piece. It really is quite revealing when people who so earnestly support a certain cause are so busy waving grotesque signs around that they fail to rationally consider all sides of what is clearly a very complicated issue. And when they are caught horribly off-guard and stumble incoherently, they always turn back to "well, god told me to be here."
I am not at all interested in taunting people of faith, however, people who feel strongly enough about a certain issue to campaign for it on street corners should at least be informed enough to have a rational conversation about it without resorting to end-game statements such as "god told me to do it." That just reveals that they did not consider all sides of the issue before making a judgement.
Question: "How long have you been involved as an anti-Abortion protestor?"
Answer: : "A few years."
Question: "And in that time, have you ever thought about the women?"
Answer: "Ahhh....well....ummmm......no, not really."
Priceless. Notice how all the religious fanatics get an almost-dazed look in their eyes, when confronted with a sensible question they can't answer? To a junkie who's high, this is what's known as a "downer".
They are against it, and they think they know why, and have never really thought it through, but they want everyone in the country to be forced into compliance.
How can a person stand with a sign (for years) stating a position that THEY STRONGLY hold to be the correct position, and never really THINK about it!
I bet they put more thought into what they want for breakfast, than they put into their beliefs.
I am truely amazed that these supposedly well meaning, God fearing women that are so moved by this issue, and are so adament about this being "illeagal" have not thought about the consequences of their position. If you want legislators to get involved, then some hard choices need to be made. If these women want to see jial time being served for this "crime" then are they advocating the release of true criminals to make room in our already over burdened prison system. This is America, and if a woman decides that she wants to terminate her pregnancy, then it is her God given right. Only she can decide, and the government has no business making that decision for her.
So, in that line of thinking, if I decide to go out and kill a pre-school full of children, that is my God given right???? After all, you cannot legislate morality...
Exactly where did you get the idea this is a "God given right". The summation of our rights in the country are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. These, as defined by the founding fathers are in order of importance, right to life being most evident. If anywhere, it would fall under the right to the pursuit of happiness. Notice this is the right to PURSUE not the right to happiness.
Oh, and I believe that women who have abortions should receive the same jail time as those who offer their children for ilicit acts. The women are not killing the child, but the nurse's aid/nurse/doctor is. This person should receive the same penalty as those who commit pre-meditated murder, up to life in prison. Death is never a realistic penalty and serves no purpose for society. Its cheaper to keep someone locked up for their whole lives than it is to kill them.
If you think that way, there are going to be LOTS OF PEOPLE IN JAIL. Maybe by the thousands to ten thousands. With a already faltering penatentiary system in America how in the hell do you think Fed be able to handle it huh? That's a lot of women you want to put into jail.... discusting.
OK, this is exactly what i thought i'd get. is there anyone out there who knows how to give any kind of intelligent, honest debate on anything without resorting to insults or knee-jerk reactions? Opiate for the masses - it seems that's the only comeback some people have.
i mentioned the guy had a valid question. i admitted we evangelicals out here haven't given it as much thought as necessary. but i've tried to give you insight as to our world view as to how religion cannot legislate morality to the masses - but if no one is going to throw the red flag about how wrong abortion is, we will. if you have any substantive insight about this, i would invite your thoughts, not your anger. and as far as 'not thinking about the women', that is hardly representative of the pro-life movement. do you have a Crisis Pregnancy Center in your community? the woman is the focus of that particular ministry. counseling, encouragement, baby supplies, financial assistance, job placement, a genuine place of caring and support for the woman who is trying to make the most difficult decision of her life.
OK --- Here is some civil discourse on this subject.
If we are to accept the premise of God as Alpha and Omega, Omniscient, and Omnipotent, then all books written by man are unnecessary, even if they are presumed to be the word of God.
God will find His way to you (He knows how).
Example: If the written word of God is necessary to prevent a soul from going to Hell, then what about the poor unfortunate souls that never heard the word of God as ministered by some prideful ass with a book during their lifetime. They are not doomed to Hell. To say so is to know the mind of God.
I say according to the definition of GOD, leave the work of God to GOD, and people should stick to their personal relationship with Him, and stop insulting God by interfering with His works. When you minister to another human soul you are pissing in the face of God, basically saying I know better than You. This soul is Mine, for a reward from You.
How do all of these Humans know what God wants for ME and OTHERS.
Should I, or others be punished, imprisoned, or killed for these STRONG beliefs, that are not even thought through!
We don't let a cook perform surgery, why should you be "Doing Gods work". Let the cook prepare food, the surgeon perform surgery, and God, do Gods work (He does not need any help!).
Canuck, you first a simple answer to a complex question - yes, i do believe the government has every right to make laws based on moral issues - the other side of that knife is that government is not in the role of legislating morality, but enforcing the laws already on the human conscience that are there by God's design. we have done so already by making laws that virtually coincide with just about every one of the Ten Commandments that deal with human relations. murder, theft, lying (under oath), adultery (consequences thereof). abortion, by definition, is ending a life while still in the womb of it's mother. we have laws protecting that fetus from outside injury as well. the difficulty comes in trying to instigate a law that has never been on the books - in fact, has been fought against for a generation. abortion is a cultural norm now.
So IF.....and I say only IF...abortion is legal (which, in most states, it is), then you and like-minded persons would have no business interfering with the women who choose this procedure, or the clinics that provide them...right? Regardless of YOUR moral outrage, or whatever code YOU derive your "moral" stance from, you do recognize that it will have no basis in legal jurisprudence, and YOU will therefore advocate that these protestors stay at home, and make cookies, and leave everyone the hell alone......RIGHT?
You don't have to like it (and it's your choice not to), and you may even speak out against it (again, your choice and your right).....BUT.....
Canuck, let's take your argument - whatever is legal should be left alone. just because an activity is legal doesn't make it right. just because an activity as been deemed as a right doesn't make it beneficial to society.
if my neighbor sits in his house all day playing video games and all he eats is donuts and slams Mountain Dews all day, he hasn't broken the law. but what he is doing is harmful to himself in almost every way possible. if i care about his health, his mental and social development, i'm going to try to reach him with something more - something that will keep him from putting a gun to his head someday. i can't take the guy to court, and i'm not advocating the government regulating caffeine or donut shops (which i do believe is coming - and this not from religious zealots). so if i believe abortion is wrong, harmful to women, society, not to mention the potential life, then i must speak.
i do not have to respect your opinion in order to show you respect. i can believe you are wrong without showing disdain for you. and that is what drives people crazy. if they make make the fight personal, instead of about what is objective truth, then they have won.
i have been a minister in my own household for many years. i have one parishioner my wife but when i hold sermon she is never here. so i have you. lucky you. i believe there is an easy solution to this on going soul searching heartwrenching dilemma. the fetuses should be made to pay , rounded up and sent to texas where thay know how to handel trouble making fetuses. the death penalty. that will show um...........er wait ........ oh ya never mind.
but on a serious note i walk with shoeless on this one (disregard all the christen moralty), leave it alone. if a woman should ask me my peronal opinion and thay have on the matter. my answer will always boil down to this, that is between them and thier God. oh ya and the father ...perhaps .. lets not split hairs here. i believe in pro choise and i also leave it alone.
here's the problem Canuck - there are too many people on both wrong ends of this issue. 1) it is not a matter of my personal opinion. if it were, this would not be such a huge issue. millions of people (and throb is right to say it is not just a Christian platform) believe there is a higher authority on this one. moral relativism, anyone? but... 2) for pro-lifers, i do not think this issue can or will be won in the courts, in Supreme Court appointments, or our American congress. it is a cultural debate in my mind - people won over by not by arguments or votes, but by people living out the character of Christ and churches that care more about others than they do their own survival.
1) Canuck, stop copying off pod and writng in the form of a script. BE ORIGINAL for once in your life.
2) This film crew took hundreds of takes and included only the ones where the interviewees were befuddled. This biased reporting does not represent the majority of anti-abortion advocates who do have opinions on what should happen to the criminal if abortion were made illegal.
3) This is not just a christian issue. There are plenty of atheists who are vehemently opposed to abortion.
Hey Throb, here's a novel concept. Instead of tracking down every F**king post that Canuck makes and trying to shoot IT down, let's try this............COME UP WITH SOMETHING USEFUL TO SAY OR GIVE UP!
What a bunch of idiots! This video shows a snippet of how stupid people can be. Their response is "Its murder," but no time in jail. If these idiots want to make it illegal then they need to be ready to make life imprisonment or the death penalty a reality as it would be considered 1st degree murder as it is done intentionally and it was pre-meditated.
Hard to say manslaugther or 2nd degree. How do you argue that Canuck was only vacuuming out his cooch or if he decided to stick a coat hangar. Is it really valid that he just wanted to see what happens?
If someone is going to get an abortion are they really punishing themselves?
Its funny how these idiots are advocating making abortion illegal, but they have no voice for themselves. I wouldn't be suprised if half those woman already had abortions and thats why they don't want to attach a penalty.
I thought about it for a few minutes and you could get a reduced sentence! If you used a wet-n-dry vac to vacuum out the fresh buckets of semen or the coat hangar to scrape out the dried up stuff your defense would be sound.
Libertyville is a nice area and people are very well educated, so the truth is that though they might be against abortion and think that it should be illegal under the constitution, these people are smart enough to see the logic in not making a woman go to jail for this, whether they believe in a womens right to her own body vs death. Take someone less educated/metropolitan from Alabama or Kentucky and I guarantee that their responses would be "she should serve jail or she should somehow be reprimanded under the law"
Now I am pro choice and I believe this question this guy posed to all of these anti-abortionist is an extremely valid one. Sooo for the youtube republican debates, I will pose this question to the audience and hope it gets picked for the debate
What's the f'n point of making it illegal without ramifications? Intelligent? An intelligent person wouldn't agree to a law that holds no penalty.
According to Merriam Webster, law is defined as, " binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority."
How can it be law if it is not binding or enforced? Since you are the genius, answer it.
When abortion was illegal why do you think there were quite a few botched illegal abortions?
Maybe these backwoods retards should either use protection or engage in abortion themselves.
podman - you next OK, i am obviously beginning with the premise that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, altogether good Creator God. everyone has an angle, a foundation to their belief system. this is mine. So it should be obvious that i'm confused by your comments. do you have any idea that God has already found his way to us in at least two ways - Jesus Christ, and the written word (the Bible)? the issue of God sending people to hell who have never heard of his or his word is totally irrelevant to this discussion, but the part about interfering with God's work by helping others is pissing in the face of God? what? have you ever read what God has asked us to do in his name, for his sake, to show others the love and grace he has for them? Have you ever read the words of Jesus about helping the poor, feeding the hungry, making disciples? have you ever read the letters of Paul about how he confronted the godlessness of his age with the good news of Christ's sacrifice? the work of God is not done apart from the hands of men. people have been doing 'God's work' - although imperfectly, for centuries. the only reason i stand fast on my beliefs is not because i am a 'prideful ass', but because i read the scriptures. i do not believe i am better than you. i'm just a beggar trying to tell other beggars where to find bread
You did not curse at me like the other Christians.
I never met Jesus Christ. Although others here know I talk to him all the time. Right guys?
"The issue of God sending people to hell who have never heard of his or his word is totally irrelevant to this discussion"
Wrong! This is exactly relevant! That is what these people are doing. The difference between what we believe and what we do is the question.
These people are passing the word of God THROUGH their tiny minds, and vomiting it out in some different form. I would not presume to translate for God.
The word of God does not need translation.
Do good works, love mankind, etc. Just don't say that you are doing Gods work. Is that the sin of Pride?
Thank you!, Thank you!, Thank you! You are the first Christian to say this to me in my lifetime: "i do not believe i am better than you. i'm just a beggar trying to tell other beggars where to find bread" - I believe this also.
I agree here also: " the work of God is not done apart from the hands of men. " Just don't say it is Gods work. Just do your works with God in mind and say nothing. I think God will do the rest.
the issue of God sending people to hell who have never heard of his or his word is totally irrelevant to this discussion
if a Christian curses at you, i would have a hard time putting faith in their God too. sorry about the irrational ones among us. they obviously aren't following their Master's footsteps.
help me out here, i still don't know how opposing abortion is casting eternal judgment on those who perform or take part in that activity. if you pronounce an activity as a sin, then the one who performs it is guilty i suppose. this is not the unforgivable sin, however. i will not make the judgment call - that is God's job.
passing the word of God through tiny minds is all we have the ability to do. that's about as much as anyone can accomplish. the word of God does not need translated? it's not a matter of being warped to their own thinking (which some Christians are apt to do), it's a matter of seeing several places throughout God's word that speak directly against taking another human life and saying, "Look! This is what God says! Why can't you see this?" it isn't a debate over what God say - it's a debate over whether i am going to listen to God or not.
"Do good works, love mankind, etc. Just don't say that you are doing Gods work. Is that the sin of Pride?" OK, maybe you've go a point there. but understand what Jesus said in Matthew 28, "make disciples, teach them to obey all that i have commanded you" and the apostle Paul said in his second letter to the church at Corinth - "We are Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God." Christians only speak in terms of doing God's work and speaking God's words because that is what the scriptures speak.
Thanks for your appreciation and honesty. and i apologize if you've been turned off Christianity because of Christians. that seems rather self-defeating
You say this: "i still don't know how opposing abortion is casting eternal judgment on those who perform or take part in that activity. if you pronounce an activity as a sin, then the one who performs it is guilty i suppose."
I quote this: "He who is without sin cast the first stone." and paraphrase thusly: "He who's soul is of perfect purity cast judgment on others."
I would say that opposing abortion is fine. There is no reason to bring God into the discussion.
Just try debating the issue without invoking God. It can be done, and as a mental, and yes a moral task, it is worth trying, right?
To be humble before God. All of the following can be done without invoking Gods name:
("make disciples, teach them to obey all that i have commanded you" and the apostle Paul said in his second letter to the church at Corinth - "We are Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God." Christians only speak in terms of doing God's work and speaking God's words because that is what the scriptures speak. )
Pod - "He who is without sin cast the first stone." is one of the most misused and abused pieces of scripture there is. totally taken IN context, you find Jesus not condemning the woman, true - but then he says, "Go and sin no more." he agrees that she has been caught in sin. he calls it sin. in doing so, he agrees with the religious right-wingers that are about to stone her. but he shows grace, not condemnation - which is exactly what we are supposed to do. we call a spade a spade, but it's not our job to bring condemnation (that is, eternal damnation) on another human. if you take your logic to its conclusion, then our criminal justice system is a complete sham. everyone who's ever committed a crime could just quote that verse and expect to be off scot-free. no one is perfect - therefore, no one could ever point out any short-comings in anyone else.
No reason to bring God into the discussion? Without God, there is no discussion. without God in the discussion, what leg does anyone have to stand on who supports or opposes abortion, murder, theft, child molestation, or any law. where do you think we got our idea of what is good or evil - right and wrong? do you think we evolved this kind of thinking from a survival of the fittest mentality? to have moral law, there must be a moral law giver. to have any idea of right and wrong, there must be a source of ultimate good. every civilized culture since the dawn of man has had rules governing life, property, and family.
i'm afraid i cannot divorce my views about law, society, or family with invoking the name of God - because he has addressed them specifically. it is not pride or arrogance to rely on what God says in these areas, it is obedience.
There are the laws of Man, and there are the laws of God.
"if you take your logic to its conclusion, then our criminal justice system is a complete sham. everyone who's ever committed a crime could just quote that verse and expect to be off scot-free."
I stop at a red traffic light because it is for the good of my fellow man, as well as myself. There is nothing in the Bible about traffic lights is there? This is a law of Man that has fundamental extrapolations into common logic.
Jesus could Judge, because he was pure. We are not. I don't think we should use Gods words to perform judgments. We should apply only Mans laws to this duty.
I guess we will have to be disagreeing here: "to have moral law, there must be a moral law giver. to have any idea of right and wrong, there must be a source of ultimate good."
If man is as God intended, then the morality is built in. It really is if you think about it. We KNOW that killing may be wrong, because we don't want to be killed. Even a chipmunk knows this. It is built in.
The savagery meted onto mankind by absolutist thinking has been unrelenting since the awareness of fear sparked into the first human mind.
I see no relent until the separation of Faith from religion is achieved.
i didn't come into this discussion thinking i could change someone's thinking in a few words - but i did want to see how others would respond to what i had to say. thanks to canuck and podman for the chance to have some dialogue - it's helps my thinking.
i think you're right - we'll have to agree to disagree. i am a theist. and from what i can read, you may not be an atheist - but you may be some kind of Deist - one who thinks there's a God, but he is not at all interested nor does he meddle in men's affairs. so from this we begin, and from this we differ. "There are the laws of Man, and there are the laws of God." - i would contend that man's laws came from the very mind of God. you stop at a red traffic light because it is for the good of your fellow man, as well as yourself. nothing in the Bible about traffic lights? no. but all through scripture is the idea that life is precious, God-given, and it is to be protected. This common sense law has its very roots in a Christian world view.
"Jesus could Judge, because he was pure. We are not." And he did not judge (condemn) the woman - but he did say that what she had been doing was wrong. please do not lose that point.
"If man is as God intended, then the morality is built in. It really is if you think about it." You're right - the Old Testament book of Ecclesiastes says that God has placed eternity in the heart of every man. Man was perfect once, and his pride and sin darkened his thinking and we've never been the same since.
"The savagery from absolutist thinking has been unrelenting since the awareness of fear sparked into the first human mind." Come on, don't give in to this multicultural rhetoric. You're pulling the old Yoda quote, "Fear leads to anger - anger leads to hate - hate leads to suffering." i don't disagree with you because i fear you. i won't kill you because you're an infidel - whatever that is. absolutist thinking is only savage when I have to be in control - when my glory, money, power, or tradition is at stake (i have none of each). my absolute truth comes from the God who said, "the truth shall set you free"
thanks again - i hope iron has sharpened iron here and helped both of us
I have no idea how this turned into such a biblical debate, however the bottom line is America is about choices. Abortion is about a woman's choice to decide whether she wants to carry a baby or not.
No matter our viewpoints by stating that abortion is illegal then we are allowing the government to tell woman what they can and can't do with their body. If they don't want to carry a fetus then should they really have to?
Its nor about morality its about choice. If you feel otherwise then go live in another country where abortion is illegal and you can live in your ideal socitety.
You don't have to favor abortions in order to be pro-choice, you should just recognize that you wouldn't do it yourself.
useddouchebag - You should reread this little discussion a little closer. Shoeless and I were discussing this very point. Should morality bolstered by religious rhetoric be used to control peoples lives by forcing legal actions upon them.
My view on this. For what it is worth.
I agree with you. This is not a religious issue. It may be a moral issue however. It depends on our own world view.
Is it a life - Yes/Maybe. (spontaneous abortion, inviable, cancer, etc..)
Does that life belong to the mother (Yes?), (to God? Yikes!), or to everyone, but the mother (Yikes again!). I say it belongs to the mother, until birth.
How do we know this? The very clear dividing line of birth, and the very clear dividing line of fetal dependency.
Also on the fuzzy lines drawn for personal actions we have the morality issue. Religion constantly tries to redefine the morality issue and claim it as the word of God.
Does morality belong to the individual (Yes), or God (Yikes!), or to society (depends on the society!).
Is it a legal issue. I think not. If the fetus belongs to the State, then We all belong to the State. I want to be free from all encumbrances of the law in regards to my personal self, and thoughts. This is why in the discussion above I was trying to separate the actions of the Law, from the beliefs of a religion.
As you can read above, the religious mind set, is to embrace these encumbrances by the State, and indeed to create more, because they already accept the encumbrances of their religion, and by accepting that they cannot accept that others would act opposition.
However Mr. shoeless did understand that the State may not be the best arbitrator for these issues, because of the direct conflict within his religion to do this (very enlightened here), and the conflict of other religions to this point.
Ummmm......I think there is a little something in the US constitution that is supposed to separate church from state. Now if there had not been this separation these church fanatics would still want to burn heretics at the stake. Look out Pod, you may be shrimp on the barbie.
Everyone has their own opinion in God and religion. However, the vocal "religious" people need not try to force their beliefs down everyone's throats.
You don't have to go to church or even memorize the bible in order to be spiritual.
In some cases, churches are nothing more than businesses for preachers/pastors/etc. to become wealthy from. Why do pastors need to drive high end Cadillacs, BMW's, or Jaguars? Look around and you will probably see a church on every corner, and in some cases they are like castles. It is difficult to respect an entity that is supposed to be for the good of the people when in many cases it is for the good for themselves. I will not lump all churches together as I am sure that there are many good churches out there.
There are several christian sects that believe that an individual can be saved WITHOUT being exposed to the word AND they base their beliefs on interpretation of the same scripture.
Speaking of Islam, I got ole Muhamed down here on a nightly gang ass-raping ruitine. He's starting to enjoy it too much though when Hitler cums in his mouth.
Yes Pod. Canuck and you are next. Enough pressure and ridicule will make a person question themselves. Next comes a period of soul searching and whether they want to continue travelling the high road. When they decide the high road is not very fun, the low road is a fun filled time of childish antics and verbal lambastings. Once they have decided the low road is more fun the "hidden" bipolar personality surfaces, hence the alias.
Not necessarily. Look how something as mild as water over time can erode rock. You may not be chisled in a day, but you will slowly be eroded over time.
These people are stupid. How can people who are against something this strongly not think about the consequences and penalty for those who commit this "crime" they are protesting against? Stupid!
If the rightwing Christens ever got thier way and Abortion were once again illegal in all states imposed by the federal goverment. then hold on to your asses because if you think Baghdads a hot spot for violence . well see what happens here. and thats exactly why it wont.
I think it's wierd that nobody said, "It's not the women that should be punished, it should be the people who performed the procedure."
That would make sense, relatively speaking of course. The whole issue way too complicated for anyone to have an infallible opinion over, unless they draw upon conclusions that have yet to be varified as fact.
Me? Yeah I'm against abortion. I think it's pretty F***ed up. But I have to admit to being a hypocrite because in some cases (pregnancy as a result of rape, having sex too young, etc.) it would seem like an abortion is the best option.
If Abortion was struck down by the Supreme Court, all it would do would allow the STATES to decide if it was illegal or legal. Do not fear, slayers of children, New York, California and other liberal bastions would be abortion havens and it would be perfectly legal.
The simple answer, of course, abortion is taking of life. Murder is the illegal killing of one human being by another. Infanticide is the practice of someone intentionally causing the death of an infant. There are already laws on the books when someone murders a pregnant mother. Is there such a dramatic difference for a mother who wishes to terminate her baby?
Don't give me the law shouldn't get into the bedroom or your sex life. My friends in the USA, it already DOES! (Ex: prostitution )
tell me oh wise one how do you so called christens stand at the true murder and taking of noncombatant life when it come in the form of the death toll now ringing in the desert of Iraq?
Abortion is a poor moral choice, but should not be illegal. I agree with Throbstick (heaven help me - haha) I base this on my OWN moral beliefs, as I am an atheist. But abortion does not bother me nearly as much as the santimonious church goers who oppose it based on being called by their god. Shoeless - How exactly did you determine that God presented himself through Jesus Christ and the bible? You only think of these as being somehow important given the time and place of your birth. Why should I accept that Jesus is any more real than Zeus, or Ra, or Thor? As for the bible - have you actually read that thing? How do you reconcile all the Old Testament business about killing anyone who speaks against God, etc including your own children?!?! with wanting to cherish and protect the unborn?
Religion and its deluded followers have caused far more pain and suffering in our world than any abortion provider.
Shoeless, you seem to be "relatively" level headed in your approach at times. But then you offend the atheist or the humanist who has very high moral character by saying his morals have no basis. I dare say that per capita I find atheists and humanists to practice a higher morality than christians.
And what is this reference you make to godly sins including lying only if it is under oath? I will believe the word of someone who refuses to take an oath on the basis that it falsely certifies a statement and that every thing spoken should be the truth over someone who swears on a stack of bibles.
Even if these video responses were selected from hundreds, these particular individuals are following blindly without thinking through the whole problem. I did find the woman who resorted to counting her beads the most disturbing when she refered the reporter to someone else over there somewhere to answer how SHE felt about something. And those that were not lawyers so they could not answer how they felt. Did they actually think lawyers somehow had more valid feelings than themselves. That is really sad.
I think people should take responsibility for their own thoughts, opinions, and morals and stop blaming god, lawyers, or that guy over there.
"God" is not actually some being out there in heaven who points at souls and sends them spiraling up into the heavens or down into hell at the time of death.
Think about this for a moment... just ponder it, even though it digresses from Christian belief:
God... is the collective body of all souls in the universe. Souls come back time and again in different lifetimes and life forms to live out lives and learn different lessons to further their development. Souls live in the 5th and 6th dimensions however, so the timing and sequence of lifetimes doesn't matter... meaning "I must have done something bad in a past life" doesn't make sense to a soul.
A woman who has an abortion stops the manifestation of a life through that form, but that soul will come through in another form later somewhere else more appropriate.
Just a thought.
Lastly... why hasn't any one talked about some of the other relevant issues here?
1. define "person". Is a fetus really a person? Just because it has a heartbeat and arms and legs, does that make it a person?
2. anyone concerned about over population?
3. Was Jesus really pure? Does it matter? Did he have to be so pure to be able to do God's work?
4. The Bible was written by MEN, not God.
That's it... just some thoughts.
And yes... I do have children, who I love very very much.
And yes... I did abort a fetus once. It would have been a very bad situation if that baby had been born.
BigBad-
You may define God anyway you wish. (I am not aware of Christians who define Him in the manner you put.) Defining has always meant putting boundaries upon. We are in no position to do that without our biblical inferences. You should go see how God defines Himself and by inference and asociation can we humbly try to understand.
1. We cannot define "person". That is a philosophical place. But, we do know that at conception, that organism is on its way to being a human being, not anything else. By that virtue alone, society has a duty to regulate the termination thereof. No fictional right trumps that.
2. No...anyone concerned about an arrogant elite who might wish to choose who can and cannot live?
3. Yes. If not, then all of Christianity is false. There is no room for error in the belief that Jesus is God personified. Yes, he did.
4. What is your point? If it is the inspired Word of God, what is the problem. When people assert that, it is usually because they have not taken the time to read and study what it is they do not like or disagree with. It is intellectually lazy. Understanding and then obedience comes with time and experience.
Fortunately, your mother didn't have the same feeling about you when you were born.
Oh yeah... yes... I believe in God or the Divine... just don't believe that MAN has ever really been able to describe or understand it. Everyone has theories, and no one really has it all right.
True...but, I like other Christians, don't ask that you believe us...but that you believe God. If there is a creator who is all knowing, etc...it would be in our best interest to find Him, submit to His wisdom (He did make everything so is infinitely smarter than us) and find out how we fit into His plans. It takes submission of our will...intellectual, emotional, physical and spiritual.
Not likely that either side of this issue is going to persuade the other to agree with them. However, there is something important to take away from this video. And what you should take away from it is very very different from what the documentarist (ha!) was attempting to portray.
The theme of the clip is an attempt to show pro-lifers as a bunch of ignorant hillbillies who never gave any "real" thought to the subject of abortion.
But what I noticed about the clip is the fact that these pro-lifers are so concerned about what they consider to be the taking of an innocent life that their concern never laid with retribution against the perpetrators. And I think that this is very telling. In fact, it seems that they are so unconcerned with punishing the people who are committing these acts that retribution and revenge against them is largely the furthest thing from their minds.
In light of this, one would think that the left might reconsider their portrayal of social conservatives as hate-filled misanthropes. But who are we kidding? The left engaging in self-reflection? Now THAT'S the thinking of an ignorant hillbilly.
Joe Friday--the detective who sees what is missed. Great observation and beautiful reasoning. "Just the facts" has been elevated.
Bill-which part do you debate?
Streamlined, let's say that I grant you that the bibleis the inspired word of God. I still can't come to grips with the fact that decades after it was written, man chose which books made it and which books didn't make it into the bible as we know it today. That implies some human intervention/interactivity to say the least. Of course you could say that God inspired those men to make the decisions to put the right books in the bible, but that's just conjecture since it doesn't say that in the bible.
Someone once made a very valid argument to me in this reguard;
The Bible is the Oliver Stone version of what MAY have transpired.
Criticize all you want, but it's amazing how short a period of time needs to pass between any event and it's subsequent retelling for it to get twisted. Do I agree that Jesus existed, Yes. The rest of the story is debatable at best.
T-that is a reasonable direction to go. However, do some specific digging as to why the canon has arrived at it's current state. Which books were eliminated and why? Do those books add or detract from Christianity overall?
You see, I am not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The miracles. There is physical proof that Jesus existed yet only a very few people account on the actual miracles themselves. Most, long after the fact.
Nope, sorry Stream, lost my blind faith years ago. Just a realist now. Wont debate you on it because I believe that all people have a right to their own path and whatever leads them. If there is a God, I hope he's got a damn good sense of humour.
B-You do believe in lots of things that require faith, that you have not observed. Anytime someone tells you where they were, what they were doing, etc...you belive as an act of blind faith. Whenever you read a newspaper article and believe it...you do so on blind faith. If you believe tha scince has demostrable proof of the past, you do so on blind faith.
I am not trying to undermine your right to your path, only the path itself.
I imagine God smiles at human folly but weeps when we don't find our way closer to Him.
Right, but someone telling me they went to the mall is a lot different to someone telling me they went to the mall in Sydney, Australia and back in 20 seconds. I wouldn't believe that with more proof. Billy is saying that his burden of proof test is passed for the existence of Jesus but the bar is higher for miracles simply b/c of the frame of reference we humans come from.
The question is all wrong! Abortion is not being prosed as being illegal. The act of performing an abortion is the item on the table. Now go back and ask the same people if the doctor performing an illegal abortion should be punished. I suspect you won't though, because you will not get the answer you were looking for. Cowardice I must say, and a twisted way to try and make good intentioned individuals look incompetent.
The issue in America is the performance of the procedure, and that is where the punishment is and would be directed.
Wait--lost me. Abortion is not being proposed as being illegal, but performing it is?
If it becomes illegal, I suppose there would be some sort of punishment for the people performing the abortion. Where is the cowardice?
notice: these are what the pro-choice people call "right wing extreme phsyco haters". they seem to me like perfectly normal loving people. maybe because i am one of them.
You can have your own opinion, but many of the outspoken ones are head cases to say the least. Because you are self-proclaimed then you will be lumped in with the head cases. This is stereotyping at its best.
yes, i know of one of those good people you know the guy who blew up the clinic killing a few sinners . please tell me you remember. his name was eric ..... oh must i look it up naaa u know who and what im speaking of. real good people he turned out to be.
stream proof, proof, proof i ask proof of this so called word of god ! you say the word of God is written by Man inspired by God and that is the Bible .am i wrong? i ask for proof of this you refer me to the Bible am i also wrong? how is it when i say that i believe christ showed me the way to God i had the feeling that if i didnt believe as you and perhaps a few more of the "christen" hard liners then i wasent a true believer riddle me that Batman! i said it once and i will say it a hundred times the Bible was written by man and rewritten by men who were lets just say less then trustworthy shall we . do you remember playn a game called Post office ? 7 to 8 kids sitting in a circle. after looking at a piece paper one kid starts off wispering what was written the secomd kid in turn does the same and so on untill the last kid translates what he believes was the message. well the Bible is the biggest game of Post office ever played. i believe in good, i believe in love and i believe God is those two and those two only. it is my belief that there is no angry God, there is no jealous God and there is no vengeful God , we Humans take care of that our selfs we need not blame him for our folly.
but then again what the fuck do i know im just a christen gone wild!!!
Rf-Where do you get your beliefs? You demand proof of things that require faith and then only a few sentences later tell us what you believe...WITHOUT ANY PROOF!
Everytime you talk about how the Bible came to be, you show ignorance and laziness for throwing it all out.
Randall-which parts of the Bible do you accept, which do you deny...and why? If we can all just simply pick and choose based on how smart we think we are, then what good is any belief?
(PS-when trying to show your (a) sound Christian beliefs, or (b) your ability to reason...try not dropping the "F" bomb; you come off with more credibility.)
Ok, despite the morons in this video, I noticed something, not sure if anyone else saw it, but the adds just to the right of the vid were about fertility clinics and adoption. I even refreshed the screen several times and the same ones kept coming up. Either it's strange irony or glumbert is against abortions.
Silly, silly monkeys and thier crazy ideals. Think in poise, always wonder about your actions and what reactions may come from them. Where are the responsible, intelligent, non-delusional people these days?! Evolution, De-Evolution or Destruction - these are basically our 3 pathways for the future, wonder what it will be. My opinion anywho, respect all your thoughts and such, hope you find out this dry argument is all that it is. To each thier own.
Personally, I haven't decided on the whole Jesus being son of God thing.
From a proof standpoint though, ask most historians, the bible passes more reliability and authenticity tests than any other historical document more than a couple of hundred years odl. And we take those other documents as a matter of fact.
That is very, very true. The larger point I was making earlier is about faith as a whole. There are many fantastical things that people believe, that they demand no proof of...yet, demand proof from the Bible and miracles. If one believes in a God who made the world, why is it such a stretch to believe in the miracles at the hand of that same God?
To beleive that though you have to believe that Jesus was the son of God. If you're there, then miracles from him = God are easier to believe.
The model seems to complciated and pointless - why send down someone in the form of man?
If the angel lucifer, a being more powerful than us, fell, wasn't it pretty obvious that man would also fall and therefore isn't it a flawed model? I jsut don't get that. Didn't God learn after the lucifer fall? how could he make the same mistake, yes mistake, with a lesser being????
Good questions
Lucifer was not an angel. Satan was. (Lucifer's tale is a different one that has been miscast over time.)
As Adam's rebellion shows, it is human rebellion and willfulness that keeps us apart from God. The model-where man willingly returns to his connection with God-is perfect. It would appear the angels were/are, in that capacity, subject to willful dissent, like us.
Why is it a mistake to give life, life with a will to choose, so that that life can choose you? It was out of love that He brought us into being. The alternative: bring nothing into life OR bring robots/automotons into being that do not have the capacity to choose Him, but rather only do as He says.
The philosophical answers you want are not understood or accepted immediately and take time, prayer and study...of the Bible.
One way or the other, belief takes faith in the unseeable and unknowable. You may want proof in this matter, but make no mistake, you are believing, as a matter of faith, in many other things elsewhere in your life.
good morn: i have to go to lowe's so quick lets speak of faith . i have very littel , yet its one of the things i pray for . just awhile ago i wrote to you saying the Bibel was a good reference book with some historical data backed up by Greek and Roman text aslo dating back several thousand years . i told you my beliefs as far as Jesus and God and i will say nothing about that here . i will ask you a queston here then i must be off. 1: is it in your belief that the world was created 7 to 10.000 years ago 2:was man created from clay and then God breathed life into him(literitly)? i know these questons were posed to you on another page and i seem to recall your answers , but i would like to see them on this page . wife calling ..... snaaaaaappppp oh and i started to pray for god to remove my man tits that some one was so mean to point out .lol
I am sorry you have very little, Randall. I would suggest you have a lot, just not in the same place I do.
1. Yes
2. Yes
Your wife loves you anyway, despite your feminine attributes. : ) Hey, what's it like having for yourself the things that boys can't keep thier hands off of anyway?
Right, but back to my question on the Fall. If powerful angels were prone to fall, why would God create a lesser being out of love? Wouldn't that being be more likely to fall and therefore defeat the purpose of spending time together and havig a connection with God? Wouldn't it have made more sense to create a more powerful being than the angels with less flaws, but one that still had a choice? Also, if we can be saved, what about Satan?
I do believe in God, but struggle with the Fall, Jesus, etc. And I know it's tougher to get there the older you get! I've read R.C. Spraul, C.S. Lewis, and countless others. Even went through Case for Faith and Case For Christ. I end up with more questions than answers.
It is good that you are seeking because we all go through periods of doubts and certainty.
There are a few ways to go on this and you could try any or all of them:
1. Havinga choice means we could choose no God, choose our own rules, etc. I believe that is what makes choosing Him so profoundly wonderful. Read the story of Moses and remember, they were not a Jewish people with formal instructions frm God...they had only faith. See where you might fit into that.
Be back in a minute...
I once read that maybe god has a twisted since of humor and we are to him as a child is to an ant farm. Throw a few curve balls at the ants and see what happens.
I think I would get bored after eons and need to do something entertaining. Yet people would argue that he throws these curve balls in order to see how individuals cope with problems, losses, and to see how strong their faith is.
A thought for you to ponder. If god wants to test our faith with the premature death of a loved one and it was god's will, then would he not be guilty of a sin? If this is the case then how can we be judged for our sins?
Used-Who says God tests our faith by the death of a loved one? The fact that our faith is tested (in all life's situation) does not mean that is why God allowed someone's death.
Then why do you religious fanatics spew "god's will" whenever possible as to when something negative happens? You see it in the media all the time when religious people are being interviewed. You see it and hear it in sermons, so please don't ask me "Who says?" So you are essentially implying is that it is a cop-out for people to use and not live up to the realization that things happen. You are trying to take god out of the picture.
Define testing our faith? You will say something to the fact that we are tested daily blah blah blah..... Death is an everyday situation that someone has to endure. So yes it is a relevant situation in the testing of faith. We all endure this multiple times throughout our lifes. If god didn't allow it, then why didn't he prevent it and perform a miracle?
Used- Saying something is in God's will is not the same as saying that it is a test of ones faith. That is not complex. They are unrelated. If a car crashes, I might say it is within God's will. It is completely different for me to say that God crashed that car to test my faith. Unrelated.
I know you can see that.
Before the Fall(man's willfull sin): no death
After the Fall: death. ("For the wages of sin is death.) Man brought sin into the world. And, if I believe God gives me a will to choose His path or another, I have to accept that death is a natural outcome in this world.
Stream- you are slowly but surely catching on. You said, " Saying something is in God's will is not the same as saying that it is a test of ones faith. That is not complex. They are unrelated. If a car crashes, I might say it is within God's will. It is completely different for me to say that God crashed that car to test my faith."
If it is within god's will then he allowed it to happen, and not him physically crashing the car. He is not a child smashing matchbox cars together. They are different yes. Allowing something to happen is not the same as doing it, however there was no attempt to stop it. Religious people believe in miracles and god's intervention is what people call miracles. If a drunk driver smashes into a car and kills a family, did god do it? No - the drunk driver did it. Did god allow it to happen? A miracle would have allowed the family to live.
There is a correlation between god's will and the testing of faith, if you are a christian believer. I am not stating that this is my opinion, I am simply pointing out the fact that Christians often correlate god's will and testing one's faith. Maybe this clarifies my point.
Used
Thanks for the clarification. (Not sure what your point is other than agreeing with me. I hope-I hope.)
However, I don't understand why you think, as an observer, that people living or dying in a car accident represents miraculous achievement. Miracles are often in the eye of the beholder.
2. Satan cannot nor will not be saved. There is a material, spiritual and philosophical explanation about Satan in the Bible. It is really all over and not in one section. So, understanding Satan's role comes with time and study. Know this: He is the willing master of the world, but only because God has allowed this situation to be. That makes the roles of choices that much more important and that much more rewarding to God when we choose Him.
3. If an all-powerful God made everything and knows all, and I believe in Him, I trust He knows best...especially when I do not understand.
(There is a great book called, "A Handbook on Christian Apologetics" by Tacelli and Kreeft. It is broken into chapters with question just like ours.)
All I learned is something I have always known about pro-lifers, they never think about anyone but the fetus. To them, I am just an incubator doing my job. Not one of these people have anything to say about the aborters except, "They will get their punishment after death". I saw one hypocrisy after another, once they were asked what should happen to the aborter if it was illegal. They are more than satisfied to let God judge them after death, but they feel compelled to do it on earth anyway. Not one of these people actually knows what judgement awaits anyone for any sin. Their so hyped up on their own free will so they don't want to share.
wow.... y'all are still debating and debating, as we have been doing for thousands and thousands of years. It is a philosophical and scientific question "where do we come frome? why do we exist?"
The whole problem with Christianity and most other mainstream religions is that they base their beliefs on a book that has at its root a logical fallacy. The fallacy is:
"This is the word of God. It is written here, therefore it is true."
A long long time ago, when 98% of the population was illiterate, and went to church to get their sermons, in latin, this held water. It was a time of mystery, a time when the commoner knew nothing what the clergy knew and did not have access to education, or BOOKS. The power of the written word was indeed that... very powerful. So the blind faith argument, and the arguments of "God has a plan" which is not an argument at all, held water.
However, now we can all read. Science and critical thinking are taking over large portions of the population (although most of them live in Europe, and here in the USA people are still captive to the Fox network) and this "blind faith", "miracles", and "because God said so" doesn't hold water anymore.
If Christians are going to continue to dominate the world as they have for the last two millenia, they're going to need to stop referring to the Bible as their reference. They need to look up the definition of "circlular reasoning" and start looking else-where for their answers.
Just because someone writes down on a piece of paper "this here is the inspired word of God" doesn't make it actually true. Did you ever consider that?
Last however.... to do that... to question the very fundamental tenets of Christianity is kind of like experiencing an earthquake when doesn't even know they exist. The earth, that solid thing that we've been standing on our whole lives, where we built our house, our castles, our government, the very foundation of EARTH, MOVES!!!! It's also kind of like divorce... it just turns everything upside down. But this turning upside down doesn't ruin us, it broadens our horizons, wisens us, prepares us for other ordeals down the road in life.
I live in California so I've lived through lots of earthquakes and divorces. =)
So... feet boy, streamy et al.... put down the stupid Bible, acknowledge it's a BOOK for God's sake, and start experiencing God in the world, and talk about THAT. There is plenty of GOD in the world, in people's hearts and minds, in action, in miracles that happen all over us every day NOW. Stop quoting the stupid book, and start quoting life!
Bigbad-
Such flawed reasoning. I will humbly try to undo this rationale of yours.
1. "Where do we come from and why do we exist" are in no way scientific questions. Science can only test and study the here and now. If we, by inference, draw other conclusions, those are wholly philosophical.
2. What logical fallacy are you referring? If I believe that the God of the Bible is the one, true God, then what is illogical about believing the Bible as a whole? Now, if I do not believe in that God, then I would have no use for the Bible. There is nothing illogical there.
3. You have no reason to believe that that proportion of people were illiterate. I assume you are referring to a time when the Catholic Church held sway over Europe. What about the rest of the world? What about hose that were literate? Sweeping statements that seem to bolster your worldview should be correct before making them.
4. "Blind faith, Miracles and Because God says so" doesn't hold water anymore. Who is your source? It sounds like you are uncritically drinking the materialists Kool Aid. Faith holds the same plce it always has. The double edged sword of knowledge cuts both ways: We find how so very little we know but invariably think we know everything. If there is a God who made everything, it follows that He knows everything. If that is the God of the Bible, thn I had better know the Bible.
5. What other reference book is there for Christians?
6. Just because you say it isn't doesn't mean it isn't. What specifically, do you have a problem with in the Bble? What apparent logical conundrum, untruth, or general misgiving?
7. Please clarify the earthquake anaolgy.
8. Your arrogance is showing. "Stupid Bible"? I could spend weeks talking about my experiences as they relate to God, people and myself. I believe you want the Bible to be out of bounds of discussion because you know very little of what is in it.
ah... 1. the question itself is philosophical or spiritual, the method is scientific. We CAN answer questions about the past with science.
2. the logical fallacy is called "circular reasoning"
3. let's do a little research on the percentage of literate people in western europe over the ages. You start. Start around the year 500 ad perhaps. See if you can find some charts or graphs or reliable statistics.
4. my source is the secularization of the world and the turning away from religion in general by the masses (not in the US where there is a huge evangelical movement underway) Christians complain about it all the time.
The word "if" is a very interesting word. We can put lots of things in front of it. IF the Bible is true... what about IF it is not?
5. There is life itself.
6. I have problems with: -- Circular reasoning. It's the same logic that our government is using right now to tear down the constitution and our civil rights. -- The idea that there is only ONE path to God, and you better pick the right one or you're going to Hell -- The idea of Hell or damnation -- The idea that a human has to be "pure" to do God's work or to experience God in the fullest or become a realized being and bring divinity to the planet. If this idea wasn't so important to you then movies like the Da Vinci Code and the Last Tempation wouldn't be so threatening to you. Why would "all knowing" God send down someone to live a different life than Man? Think about it... if you want to teach, the best way to do it is to lead by example. I would like Jesus much better if he had a job, a dog, a wife, and some kids.
7. earthquake analogy. I'm referring to the dissolving of corrolaries or axioms or beliefs that someone has held their entire lives.
8. Sorry... didn't mean to offend you. It's just that some of the logic purported to be in the Bible, about there being only ONE way to "salvation" is ridiculous. There is nothing about life that is homogenous. Life thrives on diversity. The ideas of "obediance" and "blind faith" are great tools to control masses of people... same with the idea of a common enemy like Satan, Sadaam, or Osama.... or Jews. You name it. It's an old old formula.
I admit I have not read the Bible in its entirety. I have only read parts of it and had discussions with lots of people who have read it and studied it extensively.
I know there are some great ideas in it, but there are also some really bad ideas held firmly by most Christians I have met.
the biggest problem I have is that the Bible is the only thing Christians refer to in their spiritual quest for righteousness. Why refer to a document that is flawed when there are so many great lessons and examples in life itself and all around us? Why not seek inside our hearts?
oh yeah... this video is dumb. Just because these people haven't thought of punishment for people getting or performing abortions doesn't mean they don't believe in what they are doing. All they are saying is that they believe it is wrong and that people shouldn't do it. No harm in that.
Glad you are giving so much thought to this BigBad-
1. Science cannot answer questions about the past, ever, under any circumstances. We must infer. Science can ONLY study and test the here and now. Answering the past come from inference filtered through a worldview. (As a scientist with a degree, this is something with which I am very familiar.)
2. Are you sure you know what circular reasoning is? How is any of the above circular?
3. That's right...there aren't any. But, there were schools, churches, etc...and many of them taught reading and writing. Your 98% assertion is absurd.
4. I don't argue that the world appears to be more secularized. My point was that blind faith, miracls and because God says so still hold water. Maybe not with you, but, as I have said before blind faith plays the same role in your life as it does mine...our sources are different. (You may have misunderstood me...your "if" statement proves the point of mine.)
5. Why do treat the reading of the Bible and life experiences as mutually exclusive?
6. What circular reasoning is that?
I am sorry you do not like what is taught by Christianity, but it is what it is. God, nor anyone else, ever claimed you have to like it to make it true. I have no problem with "not choosing the right path equals going to Hell." Isn't that part of the point in choosing the right path? Consequences of our choices.
No human is "pure". We are all fallen. Yet, many of us still try to do what God wants.
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